How would you compare WS to TOC as a major venue ?

[Kevin Lynch]

Pat, through the miracle of HD TV it's not exactly as if I've never at least seen the place!

I can clearly see that WS is a course that would beat me to death.  Why would I want to inflict that on myself?   

Bill,

What about the course would "beat you to death"?  There are no trees, so you can work the ball whichever way you want.  The fairways aren't "ribbons," and the rough is not kept at absurd levels for the first 10-15 yards on each side of the fairway.  The bunkers are fairly firm, so you can advance the ball relatively easy (compared to the sand of classic courses such as Oak Hill).  

I'm not the straightest hitter in the world, and I didn't lose a single ball, so that's saying something.  From my recollection, the native grasses aren't kept at the length of "automatic lost ball" penalty (i.e. OB within the course), so I'm not sure why people think this course would "eat them up."  

Is it really just the rough look and volume of sand?  If anything, the sand makes WS more forgiving.  On most courses, the whole Dustin Johnson issue would have been moot, because he'd have been hacking out from foot long grass (if he could even find it).

It seems to me that it's the whole rugged look that scares everyone (smilar to Tobacco Road).  From playing WS and TR, I've found that the difficulty is often overstated.

[Doug Ralston]

I do not understand the 'problem' with Whistling Straits. It seems to me to be what this site advocates.

Choices, options? My God they chose to play it in so many ways. Tough greens? Duh! Open land with wind often a major factor? Yessiree!

The only thing I can think of you might dislike is that most [but not all] of it must be played airborne. But what exciting challenge. I would gladly play it if I could afford to walk on there.

Is this just more bashing of certain architects? I know Dye is not treated with the same contempt as Hills and others; but it does still seem that more problems are somehow found with his works.

Would you really even WANT a professional major tournament on Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes or other 'favored' courses buy favored architects? Does that not bring too much with it, changes and overuse etc?

Those 'old classics' do indeed get old, and I like that they are trying new venues. WS is mighty good.

Doug

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

Play TOC with Hickory and tell us your experiance, may raise your game and enjoyment - perhaps.

Melvyn

[George Pazin]

I don't understand why people state "I have no interest in playing XYZ golf course." Perhaps it's just me but I'll give any course at least one play. I understand if there are other places you would rather travel to to play first, but to say you have no interest is a little extreme IMO.

I probably won't ever play it for the simple reason that there are other places I'd rather spend my money. A lot of other places, in fact.

Might be the first thread I can ever recall anyone saying Pete Dye doesn't get a fair shake on here. Interesting take.

Btw, regarding the margin of victory thing, I'd argue that it's much more likely to be caused by a superior design, which separates the field accordingly, than by a lesser course which relies more on chance. Chance is more likely to even out over 72 holes, thus causing a smaller dispersion of scores. Just a thought.

'Course, if Brent tells me otherwise, I might believe him. Maybe.

Minor question: Even if it's listed at 7500 yards, does it play that way? Aren't courses measured along the fairways? Seems like many of the hole curve so much that if you play the pro aerial game, it is effectively MUCH shorter. Yet another reason for my Pete Dye question...

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

Play TOC with Hickory and tell us your experiance, may raise your game and enjoyment - perhaps.

Melvyn

Melvyn, as short as I am these days it's like playing with hickories!   

[Brent Hutto]

I wholeheartedly approve of your thinking, George. Not sure 72 holes is enough it to all work out but certainly if you look at the pattern over multiple 72-hole events it's a good working theory.

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, through the miracle of HD TV it's not exactly as if I've never at least seen the place!

I can clearly see that WS is a course that would beat me to death.  Why would I want to inflict that on myself?   

Bill,

What about the course would "beat you to death"?  There are no trees, so you can work the ball whichever way you want.  The fairways aren't "ribbons," and the rough is not kept at absurd levels for the first 10-15 yards on each side of the fairway.  The bunkers are fairly firm, so you can advance the ball relatively easy (compared to the sand of classic courses such as Oak Hill).  

I'm not the straightest hitter in the world, and I didn't lose a single ball, so that's saying something.  From my recollection, the native grasses aren't kept at the length of "automatic lost ball" penalty (i.e. OB within the course), so I'm not sure why people think this course would "eat them up."  

Is it really just the rough look and volume of sand?  If anything, the sand makes WS more forgiving.  On most courses, the whole Dustin Johnson issue would have been moot, because he'd have been hacking out from foot long grass (if he could even find it).

It seems to me that it's the whole rugged look that scares everyone (smilar to Tobacco Road).  From playing WS and TR, I've found that the difficulty is often overstated.

Kevin, the answer is 5) all of the above.   I just didn't find it appealing and I am an aficionado of quirk.  Maybe it had to do with the deep rough and 1200 bunkers.......

[Bill Brightly]

Some of you might enjoy reading what was said about WS on GCA.com in 2003, prior to hosting the 2004 PGA...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,14508.0/

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,5835.0/

And a very interesting comparison bewteen WS and Kingsbarns in Scotland

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,14535.0/

[Jason Topp]

I WS is a terrific test for a major even if it is not my cup of tea visually.  I think the length is necessary for the modern professional game with modern equipment.  I saw many approaches to par fours with hybrids and players were required to hit driver off the tee often.
It forces the professional to be accurate off the tee but changes up the distances so that the short accurate professional has a decent chance of success.

The thing I dislike about Dye's championship courses are the extremely severe slopes he creates.  I understand leaving them in place if they exist naturally but to choose to have all of those awkward lies is not only ugly to my eye but a torture test for the regular player. 

By contrast, I think the Old Course still plays a bit short for the professional.  Absent a significant wind, a professional can hit hybrids off the tee and still hit short approach shots often.     

[Kevin Lynch]

Some of you might enjoy reading what was said about WS on GCA.com in 2003, prior to hosting the 2004 PGA...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,14508.0/

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,5835.0/

And a very interesting comparison bewteen WS and Kingsbarns in Scotland

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,14535.0/

Very interesting, Bill.  Good to see some of the past comments (I hadn’t looked at these before I started participating in this year’s thread).  I’m heartened that I actually echoed comments from Tom Doak without having read his previous comments (i.e. since Dye went “wall-to-wall” in his shaping, it actually makes the artificiality more palatable).  That’s why I can’t understand why some people want 80% of the bunkers filled in.  That would make the artificiality even more glaring, IMO.

I also found it very interesting how the lack of any rules issues on Sunday kept the praise of the course much higher in 2004.  It leads me to conclude that people are muddling rules and design issues.

[Kevin Lynch]

The thing I dislike about Dye's championship courses are the extremely severe slopes he creates.  I understand leaving them in place if they exist naturally but to choose to have all of those awkward lies is not only ugly to my eye but a torture test for the regular player. 
  

Jason,

From my recollection playing the course and viewing the event, I can't recall too many severe lies within the fairways.  Now, if you leave the intended line, that's another story.

However, to me, Pete Dye's use of severe slopes as a "hazard" is one of the best things about his designs.  I strongly prefer my “punishment” for a missed shot to be a difficult recovery, as opposed to mind-numbing punishments like lost balls / unplayable lies / sideways hacks.

Dye doesn’t eliminate the possibility of a heroic recovery, but he’s going to make you earn it.  You may have an awkward stance or be in a rutty bunker (or both), but you’ll likely have a chance to get your club on the ball, which is something I wish more architects would incorporate into design.  Give me severe slopes or sand pits trampled by spectators any day over water or foot high grass.

[Jason Topp]

The thing I dislike about Dye's championship courses are the extremely severe slopes he creates.  I understand leaving them in place if they exist naturally but to choose to have all of those awkward lies is not only ugly to my eye but a torture test for the regular player. 
  

Jason,

From my recollection playing the course and viewing the event, I can't recall too many severe lies within the fairways.  Now, if you leave the intended line, that's another story.

However, to me, Pete Dye's use of severe slopes as a "hazard" is one of the best things about his designs.  I strongly prefer my “punishment” for a missed shot to be a difficult recovery, as opposed to mind-numbing punishments like lost balls / unplayable lies / sideways hacks.

Dye doesn’t eliminate the possibility of a heroic recovery, but he’s going to make you earn it.  You may have an awkward stance or be in a rutty bunker (or both), but you’ll likely have a chance to get your club on the ball, which is something I wish more architects would incorporate into design.  Give me severe slopes or sand pits trampled by spectators any day over water or foot high grass.

I agree that the severe lies are not in the fairways.  My criticism of the uneven lies are the severity, not the concept.  While I have not played Whistling Straits, on his other courses, many of the artificial slopes are so severe one has a difficult time standing up, let alone hitting a heroic recovery shot.

[cary lichtenstein]

Apples and oranges.  I have absolutely no interest in playing the WS course but enjoyed watching the best take it on.  I can't get enough of the Old Course and love watching how the best respect its enduring challenges.

I don't understand why people state "I have no interest in playing XYZ golf course." Perhaps it's just me but I'll give any course at least one play. I understand if there are other places you would rather travel to to play first, but to say you have no interest is a little extreme IMO.

I have to agree. By not playing, you don't know what you are missing.

When I was a kid, I wouldn't try shrimp cocktails, now I know that's was dumb.

[George Pazin]

If shrimp cocktail were a few thousand a pop, I'd never know what it tastes like...nor would I care to.

[Bill_McBride]

Apples and oranges.  I have absolutely no interest in playing the WS course but enjoyed watching the best take it on.  I can't get enough of the Old Course and love watching how the best respect its enduring challenges.

I don't understand why people state "I have no interest in playing XYZ golf course." Perhaps it's just me but I'll give any course at least one play. I understand if there are other places you would rather travel to to play first, but to say you have no interest is a little extreme IMO.

I have to agree. By not playing, you don't know what you are missing.

When I was a kid, I wouldn't try shrimp cocktails, now I know that's was dumb.

I knew I'd like shrimp cocktails the first time I saw one.  I knew I wouldn't enjoy WS the first time I saw it.

Last time I checked, this was more or less still a free country!

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