How would you compare WS to TOC as a major venue ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Luck, good and bad seems to affect every round we play.

But, WS seems to produce more bad luck and as such, high numbers.

Is WS a poor, mediocre, good or great venue for a major ?

[Steve Lapper]

I wouldn't....like comparing Pam Anderson to Catherine Denuve

Poor, very poor....looks good, tastes bad.

TOC is the product of hundred's of years of mother nature's hand.

Pete Dye and Herb Kohler are bad examples for maternal (or paternal) influence!

[Shane Wright]

pat, I'm probably in the great minority here but I think WS is a good major championship venue.  Both in 2004 and this year, there was at least one short hitter by PGA standards in contention going into the last two holes.  The holes just beg the long hitter to let it rip but just a fraction off and strokes can rack up in a hurry.  However, if someone wanted to play more conservatively or is a much shorter hitter, it CAN work in their favor.  The fact that a Zach Johnson, Chris Dimarco, and Justin Leonard all had shots to win says a lot to me. 

Now the bunkering is a little absurd at times and simply not necessary in most of the areas but many of the bunkers are really well located in the fairways.

BUT it is not The Old Course. 

[Ted Cahill]

Shane- I'll join you in the minority and strongly agree that WS is a fine course to host a major championship.  It is 2 for 2 in delivering dramatic endings with fine golfers winning and contending to the end (no pretenders in site).  As a major championship venue, TOC is wanting.  The last three Opens held at TOC have not been competitive.  I wish this wasn't true, but it can't be ignored. 

[Bill Brightly]

You know what, I think WS is the PERFECT place for professional golfers to have their championship! Let them play modern day monster 7500+ yard courses that are very penal. Let them play around or out of 1200 hazards.

Save TOC (and a few others) for the Open and the US Open for great, classic courses.


I think this would be a great way to educate the public about great gca.
 

[Brent Carlson]

I'll join the minority as well.  WS weeds out the pretenders.  It has all the makings for great drama on Sunday.  In 2004 the finish was fantastic, as was this year.  Yes there are bunkers up the wazoo, but who cares.  It beats the hell out of watching majors at tree infested courses.  And the lake ain't bad eye candy either...

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think WS is very good too. I have never heard more people make more positive comments about how they like the course and the word WOW is what continually occurs. As a TV spectacle WS is 10/10. TOC is a bad TV watch.

[Michael Huber]

For the record, the winning score this year was the lowest since Tiger's -18 at Medinah a few years back, and he beat the field by five shots. 

Does a tight leaderboard indicate a good course for a championship?

[David_Tepper]

"You know what, I think WS is the PERFECT place for professional golfers to have their championship! Let them play modern day monster 7500+ yard courses that are very penal. Let them play around or out of 1200 hazards."


I agree with Bill Brightly on this. WS is a pretty darn good test for the modern pro game. I certainly did not see the course as being overly penal, at least as it played this year. 33 players broke par for 4 rounds. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Do we know what tees they played from ?

Often the total yardage for the course isn't the yardage played for each round.

Which is one of my questions for Mike Davis and U.S. Open venues

[Kevin Lynch]

David,

Do we know what tees they played from ?

Often the total yardage for the course isn't the yardage played for each round.

Which is one of my questions for Mike Davis and U.S. Open venues

Pat,

I think the yardage played pretty close to the 7,500 listed on the Card.  From the 3 days I attended, they didn't move much between Tee decks, so the only real distance difference came on the greens.  The only exception to this was the 6th, where they moved the tees up on the days the Pin was left, to make it a drivable Par 4.

I like that the PGA & USGA have seemed to embrace the Drivable Par 4 in recent years.  In the first 3 groups I saw pass thru #6 on Friday, I saw 8 players try to drive the green, with 2 ending up pulling left and hitting into the hazard (including then-leader Kuchar).

[PCCraig]

I think WS is the perfect venue for the PGA, which has started to figure out it's own identity in recent years instead of trying to out-Augusta Augusta or be a US Open wannabe. They have brought their tournament (and it's smaller CPC) to a nice mix of new and exciting layouts with modern designers and older more traditional courses like Oakland Hills, Atlanta Athletic, etc..

It also can't be ignored that the PGA has made a serious effort to move it's Championship to all parts of the country, including the South and Midwest which has been ignored by the USGA.

Is the GCA at WS perfect, of course not. However after two events it's clear that it produces exciting golf with top-notch players in the mix. It's interesting that WS is being beat up on here for its extra bunkers and their effect on the outcome, when so many on here call for a "natural" look on courses even if the land is less than stellar. 

[Phil Benedict]

An argument can be made that Whistling Straits is a superior major championship venue in the sense that (a) it looks fabulous on TV and (b) it has produced crowded leader boards both times with exciting finishes whereas the winner has run away with the Open Championship at TOC 3 times in a row (actually 4 of the last 5 counting Faldo's win at TOC).

[Bill Brightly]

I've heard talk that Donald Trump would love to get a US Open at Trump National in Bedminster, NJ. Seems to me that he should instead be shooting for a PGA and let them stretch it out to 8000 yards...

[Tom_Doak]

(b) it has produced crowded leader boards both times with exciting finishes whereas the winner has run away with the Open Championship at TOC 3 times in a row (actually 4 of the last 5 counting Faldo's win at TOC).

Phil:

Go ahead, make that argument.  I would love to hear any logical reason why The Old Course produces runaway wins and Whistling Straits produces close finishes.  [Presumably you will also tell us that these runaway wins are the result of the changes to the golf course, since Nicklaus and Ballesteros did not run away with anything in 1970, 78, or 84.

I think it's just random.  You can make a decent case that the type of player who wins has something to do with the architecture, but I'll be waiting to hear the case for how much they win by.

[Bill_McBride]

Apples and oranges.  I have absolutely no interest in playing the WS course but enjoyed watching the best take it on.  I can't get enough of the Old Course and love watching how the best respect its enduring challenges.

[Phil Benedict]

Tom,

You are probably right about the margin of victory being random.  In the case of TOC, however, the guys have so many wedges or less for their approach clubs that it's almost inevitable that someone who is on and gets lucky with the weather is going to go really low, which has happened the last 3 times the Open was played there.  The fact that it's only been 1 guy who has gone low is probably because 2 times it was Tiger Woods (who was a lot better than everyone else) and this time the winner had good luck with the weather.

The winning scores in the 70's and 80's at TOC weren't particularly low as I recall.  Maybe it was weather related but I do think technology has lessened the challlenge of TOC.  Were Nicklaus and Sevy hitting so many wedges back in the day?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Is this what the future holds for the game because no one will control technology?

By manufacturing clubs, say with the range of the Hickory clubs and limiting the ball to that of again say the Haskell ball we will still totally enjoy the game and more importantly save many of our quality courses worldwide. By that I mean the great courses built in the first quarter of the 20th Century.

Before others chip in and say you are curtailing their abilities and skill, actually no I am not advocating that, I am trying to suggest that the game will be just as much fun as it is now, in fact maybe even more so, by saving a fortune in lengthening and maintaining these mammoth new 7,500 yard plus.

As for comparing the two courses, let’s be honest it’s daft, one newish the other century olds. However how would both courses fair if we had a roll back ball and Hickory rated clubs. Now that’s the question, as I fear 6,500 plus will suddenly become a nonstarter due the actual high score being returned even by the Pros. I think we would be seeing the 5,5000 to 6,200 yard courses becoming more prevalent. But alas no one is thinking about the game but how to use technology, to make money, to make their life easy plus reducing their score. The thought is about self and not the game of golf, but then that’s base human nature that always seems to force its ugly head through.

On a lighter not ‘Go Compare’  - check out the following link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v_J2XdKB1c&feature=related as it has sod all to do with golf.

Melvyn

[PCCraig]

Apples and oranges.  I have absolutely no interest in playing the WS course but enjoyed watching the best take it on.  I can't get enough of the Old Course and love watching how the best respect its enduring challenges.

I don't understand why people state "I have no interest in playing XYZ golf course." Perhaps it's just me but I'll give any course at least one play. I understand if there are other places you would rather travel to to play first, but to say you have no interest is a little extreme IMO.

[Brent Hutto]

Pat Craig,

I'm with Bill on this one. Whistling Straits looks hard but not especially fun and other than long views of Lake Michigan it doesn't look all that attractive in an eye-candy way.

So of course my attitude is also influenced by it being 1,000 miles away and a not very accessible 1,000 miles at that. As well as the fact that it would probably cost as much as the Ocean Course to play once I was there.

But that brings the obvious comparison to mind. Pete Dye's Ocean Course, right down the road from me at Kiawah, is plenty tough enough for my game without tee shot after tee shot of visual intimdation, limited landing areas and penalties for marginal driver shots. OK, maybe there is some visual intimidation at Kiawah and maybe for daily resort play (from the proper tees) WS is not as penal as it looks.

Still, I can't help but compare it to courses I love and note that it doesn't seem to strike that kind of chord with me. Like Carnoustie, for instance. Fine course. But I've played Birkdale and Sandwich and enjoyed them immensely and those experiences do not at all lead me to look forward to the idea of a round at Carnoustie. I'd put Whistling Straits in sort of that category.

P.S. And let me add this in all sincerity and with no sarcasm intended...if my game were anywhere near Pat's level I can imagine wanting to test myself against a course like Whistling Straits as a challenge. For better or worse I can be highly challenged by a much wider range of courses.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat, I must confess being confused by this post. I understand this may get Tom Paul of the course, but normally your subjects are very good. I do not see anything to compare on that level. TOC is the home of golf as well as one of the great courses in the world. It has stood the test of time, changes in the game and technology without doing much more than getting lawnmowers and extending most tees.  WS is well just a very good golf course and a great engineering work.

[Gary Slatter]

I now agree that WS makes a great major venue, one completely different that the other 3.   WS would be even better if they eliminated about 1000 of the "bunkers" that in many aerials look like stretch marks.  Eliminate the bunkers and improve the spectator viewing areas, play it from the tips, plant fescues on the fairways as often as possible, WS could be a great tournament course.  One that I would never dream of playing but one I'd love watching the best compete on, every few years.   Ideally WS could finish making "improvements" so we could compare how the best fare against the previous field, 2004 vs 2010 vs ****.

TOC - as much as I enjoy it, TOC can't support too many more majors.  Like Old Prestwick, its still great but the championship game has passed it.    I am flying to play TOC one more time on September 2.  I have a few days and after trying to decide where in the world I'd like to play, TOC seemed the only logical conclusion.  Might sneak past Castle Stuart to play Dornoch too!

[Bill_McBride]

Apples and oranges.  I have absolutely no interest in playing the WS course but enjoyed watching the best take it on.  I can't get enough of the Old Course and love watching how the best respect its enduring challenges.

I don't understand why people state "I have no interest in playing XYZ golf course." Perhaps it's just me but I'll give any course at least one play. I understand if there are other places you would rather travel to to play first, but to say you have no interest is a little extreme IMO.

Pat, through the miracle of HD TV it's not exactly as if I've never at least seen the place!

I can clearly see that WS is a course that would beat me to death.  Why would I want to inflict that on myself?   

[PCCraig]

Bill:

I understand your point. WS is really not as hard as it looks on TV and from the right set of tees it is very playable IMO.

Brent:

I have played both The Ocean Course and WS multiple times and would say that I think TOC is a better course, but a different one at that. WS is also a very solid golf course and one that I wouldn't dismiss as quickly as many do on here. I see your point about TOC being in your backyard and it's a valid one, but if you're ever in the Wisconsin/Kohler area I can think of worse ways to spend your time. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Great major venue as there can be doubt it is a very good test of a players skills.
Does not mean I have to like the artificial look of the place, or the severity of some of its way too many slopes...but a good major venue without doubt.

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