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Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« on: August 15, 2010, 03:10:54 PM »
The website Top 100 courses in the world just published this list for NZ.  They did make the comment in theit preamble that such lists are subjective but that data has been gathered "from a multitude of sources"

1 Kauri Cliffs                      11 Auckland                     21 Southland
2 Cape Kidnappers             12 Clearwater                   22 Hamilton
3 Kinloch                          13 Christchurch                 23 Remuera
4 Wairakei                        14 Terrace Downs             24 Mount Maunganui
5 Jack's Point                    15 Royal Wellington           25 Russley
6 The Hills                        16 Carrington                    26 Arrowtown
7 Parparaumu Beach          17 Muriwai                        27 St Clair
8 Titirangi                         18 New Plymouth             28 Otago
9 Millbrook                        19 Hastings                      29 Chisholm Park
10 Gulf Harbour                 20Lakes                          30 Mangawhai

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2010, 03:42:50 PM »
Ash:

You will soon find out your country was better off without such lists. 

Luckily for you only a few people on this site have played enough of those to have an opinion.

Whoever participated is clearly impressed with money and high-end maintenance.

Stephen Britton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2010, 03:58:37 PM »
Oh boy... Take a deep breath Leo, consult with Del before commenting on this thread  ;)
"The chief object of every golf architect or greenkeeper worth his salt is to imitate the beauties of nature so closely as to make his work indistinguishable from nature itself" Alister MacKenzie...

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2010, 03:59:18 PM »
That is a staggeringly bad list. Old fashioned Invercargill deserves to be included among the top 30 in this golf weak country but why bother arguing? Seeing Paraparaumu outside of the top 3 is ever bit as criminal as seeing Millbrook in the country's top 10. Ray Charles could have done better than Bob Charles at Millbrook  :P.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 04:28:08 PM by Ran Morrissett »

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2010, 04:42:34 PM »
Ash,

Is there really that much love for Kauri Cliffs? I enjoyed my rounds there, but I must say every time I see it ranked on some list it feels very overrated to me.

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2010, 07:24:38 PM »
Andrew,
Some people I know love Kauri Cliffs, it is the setting and ambience perhaps more than its architectural merits that appeal. I found there was too many cliff top holes and preferred the inland holes on 10, 11, 12 and 13.

Tom,
There has been 1 list I have seen produced within NZ, which is surprising as there are a few golf magazines covering the sport.

Ran,
There is a new 9 holes at Millbrook designed by Greg Turner whic I have not seen.

Jason McNamara

Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2010, 08:22:08 PM »
Ash and others:

Is 30 even the right number?  Seems I have seen 30 as an upper bound for an Aussie Top NN list.  Would top 10 or 20 already cover all the NZ courses that really needed covering?

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2010, 08:49:26 PM »
Jason,

I think 20 would be a better number. 10 would be to few.

Joel Zuckerman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2010, 09:09:45 PM »
Ash,

We covered a bit of this ground in a thread I began some months ago, but please remind me again---

What GC's are close at hand to Auckland besides Titirangi and Auckland?  Is the latter worth playing?

How far is Cape Kidnappers from Auckland?  (That might be the only "road trip" I'll be able to make in my week-or-so stay.)

Thanks--hope we can meet up for a game when I'm there this February!

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2010, 09:22:10 PM »
Joel,
 Nothing in Auckland besides Titirangi.

Auckland is ok but not exceptional.

Play Kinloch and Wairakei on your way to CK

CK is 5.5 to 6 hours from Auckland.

Hope to see you in Feb.

Steve Strasheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2010, 10:45:31 PM »
About 15 years ago, Muriwai Beach is where I played my first ever round of golf while traveling. I went back several times during a couple of different trips. Also played Wairakei, Christchurch, Millbrook (just opened) and several other local courses that I would just drive by and stop to play. Golf in New Zealand is wonderful and I met some great folks that I will never forget while over there.

Was just at Millbrooks website trying to see if I remember it correctly and see that they are really changing the course.

http://www.millbrook.co.nz/about_us/awards_and_testimonials/millbrook-voted-among-best-overs

Leo Barber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2010, 05:21:50 AM »
Oh boy... Take a deep breath Leo, consult with Del before commenting on this thread  ;)

Recieved a notification from this website this morning with a press release attached of the imminent launch of the NZ Top 30.  Staggered.  Have consulted Del, her advice - "dont respond, it looks bad and you will look desperate".  Thank goodness I do not need to respond as it looks like Ran and Tom have summed up my feelings.

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2010, 07:48:23 AM »
Hmmm, I feel compelled ti take part in this thread... but where do I start?

Let's start with the Top 10 golf courses in NZ as ranked on the Golf Digest Website (www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/100-greatest-golf-courses) that came out earlier this year.

1= Cape Kidnapers (CK)
2= Kauri Cliffs (KC)
3= Pram Beach
4= Titirangi
5= Wairakei
6= Kinloch
7= Millbrook
8= Jack's point
9= Gulf Harbour
10= The Hills

Both lists feature exactly the same 10 courses, but in a completely different order. Indeed, not one course is in the same position on either list! If I had to agree with one list more than another, the Golf Digest better reflects the current ratings.

Before I continue, I must declare my hand. I am a New Zealander (most of you know this), and active in the design business in NZ. I grew up playing at (and for) Paraparaumu Baech GC, was co-redesigner of Millbrook and Oreti sand (Southland GC) with Greg Turner, worked on-site for Thomson Wolveridge and Perret when they renovated Wairakei in 1997/9. Greg and I are also hoping to start work to redesign Royal Wellington in the next few months.

There are only 3 courses in that top 30 list which I have not played.

Ran, I am with you PBGC should be in the top 3. It has, what I describe as, 'perfect scale'. The relationship between the sand dunes and the playing forms is perfect for golf. I didn't appreciate this when I was playing there as a kid, it is something which has only struck me on my return visits as I see more and more (links) courses around the world. Yes, it is a bit short now, and that may mean the NZ will fail to return there in the future, but for the average golfer this is truly exquisite test, a golf course that should be played by all fans of links courses. (Note, Leo has got the course back to it's best condition for at least 15 years, and with the couple of extra fairway bunkers, the course is better than it has ever been) 13th Hole at PBGC


As regards Millbrook. It is hard to know if the course has been ranked/rated since the changes GT are I have come into play? The new nine holes opened in May, but 4 more have not opened. The course will have 27 holes when fully opened, and the 3 loops of nine holes can be alternated as desired by the Resort. Till al the holes are open (maybe in the next couple of months), any rating of this resort is premature. (Note, the Millbrook website does not currently show the new course. It will do very soon I am told) 7th Hole on new Nine at Millbrook

Ran- as regards 'Invercargill', are you talking about Oreti Sands (aka- Southland GC)? If so, it is in the list at number 21. Invercargill has 4 golf clubs. There is another Club called the Invercargill GC, and it is very nice parkland (type) course about a 5 minute drive from the Oreti sands links. New 17th Hole at Oreti Sands

This new list for me is almost a perfect list of the golf courses with the best views. i.e. If you were to play these courses in the prescribed order you would get the most outstanding views of the sea, lakes, valleys, cliffs, mountains etc. PBGC cannot compare to the likes of Jack's point on this factors, but beats it hands down on routing, strategic merit, challenge and fun – factors which I believe must have greater weighting in an overall ranking.

Being honest I struggle to separate CK, and KC (and I find amusing there initials are a mirror image of each other). CK has one of the best nine holes in the country. The front nine is superb. I returned to play it last year and really enjoyed it. My only disappointment is the last hole. I would have preferred to see the green up on the left of the punchbowl, where it is viewable from the tee and so a miss-hit shot rolls into the basin. The approach shot for me, rewards luck more than skill (sorry Tom). 18th approach shot & Clubhouse at Cape Kidnappers

As for KC, I enjoyed this course more the second time too. I didn't play the back nine (just the front), but I found the course more interesting than I had remembered and less intimidating. Both the 9th and 18th holes play back up quite a step hill to the Clubhouse which is not ideal, but it is a good course with a playing and visiting experience that is enhanced by the Julian Robertson attention to detail. NZ has benefitted considerable from his investments, and it has made everyone else pull up their socks – like PBGC & Millbrook.

Titirangi are doing a really nice job renovating their Mackenzie course. They have 2 holes to complete, but in general the course is very enjoyable and challenging. The 10th hole is a stand-out.

I love the Kinloch area. I used to holiday there before Nicklaus ever knew about the place. The new course is very well made. I say that with some knowledge. The main shaper worked with me in St Andrews (Scotland) before emigrating to NZ. The main construction involved with the job have since helped us at Millbrook et al, and they have some excellent staff – one of whom posts on here (Grant Saunders). As for the course, it's OK. The main distraction is an over contouring of the greens.

If I had a week in the Taupo area, I would play Kinlock, but Wairakei is a more enjoyable experience – and uniquely 'kiwi' with the Punga faces in the bunkers.

10th Hole at Wairakei

If you are the type of soul who is captivated by ranking, I would reason that there is little value in rating anything more than the top 10 course in NZ. While there is about 450 (which put's it about 1st equal with Scotland for courses/head of pop), there is a marked drop-off in quality once you move beyond the first 10. I might add they there is probably a marked drop off in green fee cost too. e.g. CK might be about NZ$350 (??), Kinloch about $150, PBGC $100 and Oreti Sands (Southland) $20.

NZ is a country to that is best absorbed by osmosis. Quick visits are of as much good as quick swings. Take your time and play the little places - e.g. New Plymouth, Arrowtown, Chisholm Park.... Chisholm Park

... and use this latest ranking as a coaster for the beer or nice bottle of wine afterwards.

PS- Joel- I might be in NZ in Feb. If you make it to Wellington, think of making contact.



Regards,


Scott


PSS- All photos taken by me.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2010, 08:17:56 AM »
Doesn't look like the best list of NZ courses at all does it.

As an aside - if a proper list is to be done of NZ's Top 30, would Nelson slip in there?
I had fun during my visit there, and there's some great land close to the water.
The course really asks for some cool shots to be played.

Mind you - giving way to low flying aircraft while awaiting the 9th tee shot is unnerving...

Matthew
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2010, 08:30:10 AM »
HI Matthew,

Nelson (aka Tahuna) GC may or may not may the Top 30 (as I said, I don't see any reason to go below the Top 10), but it does make another list – One of NZ Top 10 links. The Club has a lovely old history and a very nice course to stop at.

Glad you enjoyed it.

scott




Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2010, 03:02:01 PM »
Hi Scott,

Thanks for a great post.  I really enjoyed reading it and seeing the photos.

I agree with you about the Golf Digest list but yours would be even better I think. :)

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2010, 03:18:41 PM »
Scott, Ash, et al - Thanks for the information on golf in NZ. I am hoping to visit there in March after Scott Warren's "Boomerang" event and this info will help me greatly with my planning. As this will probably be my one and only visit ever to NZ I want to get it right.

The photos are amazing... thanks!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2010, 05:34:28 PM »
Am I wrong to think the only must see courses are Cape Kidnappers and Paraparaumu?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2010, 09:41:04 PM »
Jud,

I think there is way more than 2 must plays in NZ.  When you get past the few named courses there is still a lot to see but it can depend what you are looking for.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2010, 10:47:02 PM »
"My only disappointment is the last hole. I would have preferred to see the green up on the left of the punchbowl, where it is viewable from the tee and so a miss-hit shot rolls into the basin. The approach shot for me, rewards luck more than skill (sorry Tom)."


Sorry to disappoint you, Scott.  Please remember that it's a resort, not a tournament course.  And it's hard to get the ball close to the hole from the fairway because of the mound on the left, unless you drive it well to the right.  The big boys have still yet to make a 3 there in the Kiwi Challenge, even though they've all had putts at it from five to fifteen feet.

Really, though, it was the prettiest green site you ever saw, before we were asked to put a mound in the back to obscure traffic coming into the clubhouse.  It wasn't really a bowl to start ... it was an open-ended saddle or slot.  I've never had another like it.


Jud:  The answer to your question depends on your definition of "must plays".  If you confine that to the top 100 courses in the world, there are probably only two or three, depending on whom you ask.  But if you think that you should really abandon America and move to New Zealand for the rest of your life, then you'd probably want to play more than just those two ... especially with the prices at Cape Kidnappers.

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2010, 10:53:57 PM »
i read a fun book couple of years ago title doesn't come to mind about a bloke who chucked all and went for a year's road trip starting in Patagonia and played his way around the world from lowest latiitude to highest ending somewhere in Norway.

Among the most satisfying and attractive recountings are those in New Zealand; people , courses etc. Fun read. Google it
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2010, 04:26:49 AM »
"The big boys have still yet to make a 3 there in the Kiwi Challenge, even though they've all had putts at it from five to fifteen feet."


Tom, Is your quote (above) not a concession that there is more luck involved in the green than skill?

I agree that it is a lovely area, but I think it is a better collection area than green site – particularly as I recall it can be blind from parts of the fairway. That you see it differently is what makes golf course design more interesting , and perhaps the reason you have got so many other great things out of the site.

As regards CK, was the 17th your version of the 18th at Shinnecock Hills?

scott



Anthony Gray

Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2011, 02:50:54 PM »
"My only disappointment is the last hole. I would have preferred to see the green up on the left of the punchbowl, where it is viewable from the tee and so a miss-hit shot rolls into the basin. The approach shot for me, rewards luck more than skill (sorry Tom)."


Sorry to disappoint you, Scott.  Please remember that it's a resort, not a tournament course.  And it's hard to get the ball close to the hole from the fairway because of the mound on the left, unless you drive it well to the right.  The big boys have still yet to make a 3 there in the Kiwi Challenge, even though they've all had putts at it from five to fifteen feet.

Really, though, it was the prettiest green site you ever saw, before we were asked to put a mound in the back to obscure traffic coming into the clubhouse.  It wasn't really a bowl to start ... it was an open-ended saddle or slot.  I've never had another like it.


Jud:  The answer to your question depends on your definition of "must plays".  If you confine that to the top 100 courses in the world, there are probably only two or three, depending on whom you ask.  But if you think that you should really abandon America and move to New Zealand for the rest of your life, then you'd probably want to play more than just those two ... especially with the prices at Cape Kidnappers.

  I thought the punch bowl finish added alot of interest. It was a nice way to cap off an enjoyable round.

  Anthony


Anthony Gray

Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2011, 03:56:23 PM »
"My only disappointment is the last hole. I would have preferred to see the green up on the left of the punchbowl, where it is viewable from the tee and so a miss-hit shot rolls into the basin. The approach shot for me, rewards luck more than skill (sorry Tom)."


Sorry to disappoint you, Scott.  Please remember that it's a resort, not a tournament course.  And it's hard to get the ball close to the hole from the fairway because of the mound on the left, unless you drive it well to the right.  The big boys have still yet to make a 3 there in the Kiwi Challenge, even though they've all had putts at it from five to fifteen feet.

Really, though, it was the prettiest green site you ever saw, before we were asked to put a mound in the back to obscure traffic coming into the clubhouse.  It wasn't really a bowl to start ... it was an open-ended saddle or slot.  I've never had another like it.


Jud:  The answer to your question depends on your definition of "must plays".  If you confine that to the top 100 courses in the world, there are probably only two or three, depending on whom you ask.  But if you think that you should really abandon America and move to New Zealand for the rest of your life, then you'd probably want to play more than just those two ... especially with the prices at Cape Kidnappers.

  Interesting to know about the 18th green. It was one of my favorites. I thought it made for a fun finish.

  Anthony


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Top 30 courses in New Zealand
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2011, 08:24:24 PM »
I am going back there in a month to look at a new site for someone ... I'm told by a couple of sources it may be THE best site in N.Z. for a golf course.  Can't wait to see it.  [And no, I'm not telling anyone where it is until we are ready to start it.]

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