The R and A is a disappointment re: Deal

[Scott Warren]

I am hoping those familiar with Open venues and the area required to host such an event can school me a bit here, as I have only been to R. St George's (what I am told is the biggest site on the rota) and TOC (the smallest).

Here are some maps of Royal Cinque Ports. I have marked the areas of open ground that exist for spectators, as well as the large field to the north of the golf course that could play host to the tented village. There are, as you will be able to see, many other smaller areas for spectator foot traffic.

Not marked but worthy of consideration are:

a) 1.5 miles of sea wall on which stands could be built.
b) a 315-yard practice range that could be extended to 460 yards easily as there is a field right behind it.
c) hundreds of acres of flat, open land around the clubhouse.
d) two large practice putting greens.

Also here is an aerial of the site for reference. Including the land the club owns north of the course, the site is 224 acres by my measurements.

First is the southern end of the property, where 1, 2, 3, 17 and 18 are located.



Now the middle section, which is indeed narrow, comprising 4-6, 15 and 16 (you will still note room right of 15 and 16 and if the club elected to close the road, stands aplenty could be build just right of the 16th approach and green.)



And finally the extremely spacious northern end of the site:



Where does it fall short for space? What is it missing and is that not attainable?

[Ben Stephens]

Scott,

For the 18th I estimated that you need about 200m long by 25m wide area for the grandstands. By judgment Deal would have a 50m wide stand at the back of the green and maybe 35m depth (like they did with the 16th at Carnoustie during 1999 and 2007 Opens) and a 150m long by 25m stand on the left hand side like the PGA did with Whistling Straits.

Deal looks like a figure 8 which means its squeezed in the middle. Hole 5 and 16 is quite tight but that shouldnt be a problem with spectator movement. Maybe its the R+A being elitist or they would prefer to deal with a minimum number of courses on the rota.

The tented village ideally would be on farmland next to the driving range to kept things closer to the clubhouse

Cheers
Ben

I am hoping those familiar with Open venues and the area required to host such an event can school me a bit here, as I have only been to R. St George's (what I am told is the biggest site on the rota) and TOC (the smallest).

Here are some maps of Royal Cinque Ports. I have marked the areas of open ground that exist for spectators, as well as the large field to the north of the golf course that could play host to the tented village. There are, as you will be able to see, many other smaller areas for spectator foot traffic.

Not marked but worthy of consideration are:

a) 1.5 miles of sea wall on which stands could be built.
b) a 315-yard practice range that could be extended to 460 yards easily as there is a field right behind it.
c) hundreds of acres of flat, open land around the clubhouse.
d) two large practice putting greens.

Also here is an aerial of the site for reference. Including the land the club owns north of the course, the site is 224 acres by my measurements.

First is the southern end of the property, where 1, 2, 3, 17 and 18 are located.



Now the middle section, which is indeed narrow, comprising 4-6, 15 and 16 (you will still note room right of 15 and 16 and if the club elected to close the road, stands aplenty could be build just right of the 16th approach and green.)



And finally the extremely spacious northern end of the site:



Where does it fall short for space? What is it missing and is that not attainable?

[Ben Stephens]

Noel,

I have met David Hill twice about 10 years ago at a Dundee University Golf Society event and we were talking about Carnoustie and future Open venue and he said the R+A were seriously looking at Hoylake then. I have been to Hoylake to play and am surprised as there is a lot of limitations in available space and the tented village was offsite.

David Hill has done a great job in organising the infrastructure of Open events and each year it seems to get better. Maybe we will have to wait another 10 years for the 'Mike Davis' version at the R+A and would be more open in bringing new courses on the rota.

Don't forget that very 10 years the R+A have brought a new course or a previous course that used to host opens but not had one for a long time back onto the Rota - 1970s - Turnberry (never hosted an Open), 1980's - Royal St Georges (previously 1949), 1990's - Carnoustie (previously 1975) and 2000's - Hoylake (previously 1967) so I would not be surprised if there is a newcomer onto the rota in the 2010's

Cheers
Ben

Here is the exact dialogue from the R&A press conference:

Q.  Can you talk about the process by which a course that has once
> hosted the Open Championship but has not been in the rotation for some
> time, how that course could get reconsidered for hosting an Open?  And
> specifically the course I'm thinking of is Royal St. Ports.
> PETER DAWSON:  David, do you want to take that?
>
> DAVID HILL:  Well, it's part of my role to look at all the other
> alternatives.  The general restrictions are not the quality of the
> golf course necessarily, and there's probably six, seven, eight, nine
> maybe courses in the United Kingdom that could host the Open
> Championship as far as the quality of the golf course is concerned.   
> But it's the infrastructure you need to accommodate 50,000 people a
> day, which is what we get at most of our venues.  And currently
> certainly the course you've just referred to would fall short of that.

I understand that the R&A would want to see a smaller event and we shall see after it holds the 2013 Amateur with Princes which would at best put Deal on schedule for a potential Open after 2018..  Still, I think the R&A is ignoring the BEST course in the South to hold an Open.  I think this is all bollocks, the R&A has too much invested with Sandwich and the old boys there.  It would not take much for Deal to hold the Open.  With the new tees on #3 and #5 plus a back tee on #1 which could become #18, the course easily could measure north of 7200 yards and as stated above there is tremendous room for a tented villiage at the far north end of the course..

[Noel Freeman]

Great stuff Scott and Ben..

I'm not sure if anyone has actually taken out the topo maps and figured this out-- does the R&A have people to do this?  Again, I think they have too much invested in Sandwich b/c the Deal's merits as a venue really stand out.

Would it be tight?  I guess it would but if they really wanted to make it work, I think they could?  Was there any attendance data for this past year's Open Championship.  The Old Course and Deal's routings are very very similar. True, Deal does not have other courses abutting it which could be closed down but that field north of the 11th hole is Gold. Pure Gold..

Ben, I can only hope Mr. Hill does have a change of heart re: Cinque Ports, perhaps after the Amateur.  But 3y from now is a long time.  It also bothers me in that Sandwich is such a sleepy place, it is empty most of the time while if you visit Deal, it is always bustling and a much more active club with a great spirit.

[Brent Hutto]

I love playing at Deal and look forward eagerly to my next rounds there. But my question for Noel and others...

Are you in all honesty making a case that Royal Cinque Ports as an Open Championship venue is superior to Royal St. George's? Because I have trouble believing anyone can say that on the strict merits of the courses. I'll buy "near equal" or "in the same league as" but better? No, it's not.

The town of Deal is a wonderful place to spend a few days. The club at Deal is everything one could ask. And the course at Deal suits my own (double digit handicapper) game extremely well. But surely those things argue at most for having Royal Cinque Ports as an additional Open venue, not for its replacing Sandwich. Implying that the continued presence of Royal St. George's in the Rota is a purely political thing seems an overreach. But maybe I misunderstand Noel's comment.

And who has more room for spectators, tents and hangers-on than Royal St. George's. The property is huge.

[Jamie Barber]

Brent - I agree with you, but I'd like to see the R&A move the tournament around more. It's the flagship golf event in the UK, but is hosted at only one venue in the entire South, none in Wales and none in Ireland.

Lytham/Birkdale/Hoylake are all are pretty close, as are Turnberry/Troon and TOC/Carnoutie, so why not RSG/Deal (or even Prince's which is even longer, has even more space and will have its own small hotel within a year, although I guess is further down the pecking order).

[Scott Warren]

Brent,

I don't think it is a better golf course as St George's, but I'd argue it has a lot of "wow" golf shots on it that would make it a compelling and thrilling venue for a major, brilliant green complexes that highlight links shotmaking and is easily difficult enough (RCP, RSG and Prince's all tend to average about the same score when amateur events are held across two or more of them at the same time).

So not a replacement for George's, but worthy in its own right of a place alongside George's.

[Niall C]

Great stuff Scott and Ben..

I'm not sure if anyone has actually taken out the topo maps and figured this out-- does the R&A have people to do this?  Again, I think they have too much invested in Sandwich b/c the Deal's merits as a venue really stand out.

Would it be tight?  I guess it would but if they really wanted to make it work, I think they could?  Was there any attendance data for this past year's Open Championship.  The Old Course and Deal's routings are very very similar. True, Deal does not have other courses abutting it which could be closed down but that field north of the 11th hole is Gold. Pure Gold..

Ben, I can only hope Mr. Hill does have a change of heart re: Cinque Ports, perhaps after the Amateur.  But 3y from now is a long time.  It also bothers me in that Sandwich is such a sleepy place, it is empty most of the time while if you visit Deal, it is always bustling and a much more active club with a great spirit.

Noel

Not only would the R&A have guys looking at topos but they would have been down there looking at it on the ground, finding out about the land ownership, local services, talking to the club, the local authorities, police etc. They would be constantly reviewing the situation not only for the potential to hold the Open but other events as well. Your characterisation of the R&A as a bunch of blazers making decisions over their gin and tonics, all to suit there old boy network is frankly ludicous and insulting to an organisation that puts a lot into the game.

For example this weekend the British Boys Championship was held at Barassie and Dundonald. It had been due to be held at Irvine Bogside which as unpretentious as they come. Unfortunately due to problems with the greens last winter the event had to be switched to Barassie and Dundonald. While disappointing for Bogside the R&A still gave them the money they would have been due for hosting the event.

Niall  

[Brent Hutto]

Oh no argument from me on that score, Jamie. I agree all around.

Just don't want the discussion to get carried away and claim that Sandwich is somehow a less than stellar venue for elite tournaments.

[Noel Freeman]

I'm not arguing at all that Sandwich be replaced but for Deal to be an ADDITIONAL venue in the South.. I love Sandwich.  Is Deal a superior venue for an Open vs. Sandwich? I think Sandwich has one aspect superior to Deal.. Its routing is near perfect for testing the golfer as you will get the wind at all conceivable angles.  In that sense the course is very similar to say a Muirfield or a Shinnecock.  That said, I replied that Deal is as classic a links as you can get because unlike Birkdale one plays thru the landform with uneven lies and greens perched upon plateaux with tons of contour.  That to me makes me want to see it.  It has two quirks which may disturb the professional (the blind shot on #3) and the U shaped green at #12.

Niall- Satire, I was being satirical, not insulting.. I've been around many conversations as the one I made up, salmon coloured trousers included. I happen to love English culture and memberships.  

My point was, the course was good enough to be given the Open in 1949 and the North Sea intruded due to an Easterly wind.  61 years have passed but if and a big if the Sea had not invaded, I think Deal would still be on the rota, Hoylake had the Open in '67 before goiing on hiatus, but I think the numerous floods at Deal before the seawall rendered it redundant.  That problem is now fixed.

I make no bones, I love Deal, I'm a homer, I just want to see it get its due and I highlighted what the R&A said at the press conference.  It is a disappointment to me..

[Brent Hutto]

In that case, I agree completely and took your initial comment as saying more than it was intended.

I particularly think you summed up the special characteristic of Royal St. George's in terms of elite competition. That plus the oodles of open space make it hugely attractive as an Open venue. I can't wait to watch it on TV next year.

[Michael Whitaker]

Mark Chaplin - you said, "Deal would be better suited to the British Seniors or British Womens Open. But best of all the Walker Cup, 5000 spectators, no ropes or grandstands."

I would love to see Deal get a British Seniors, Women's Open or Walker Cup. Do you think the Amateur Championship being there in 2013 help in that regard?

Scott - Deal obviously has the physical space to accommodate an Open, but there are a couple of other problems:

  1) Clubhouse & locker rooms: IMO there is not enough locker room or shower space at Deal to accommodate an event with a field
      the size of the Open. The clubhouse, while perfect for the membership and current events, would have a difficult time handling
      the throngs of players, media, and hanger-ons that would be present.

  2) The town of Deal... while a pleasant little town, I don't think Deal would be up to the task of having such a crowd of people
      invade the city. It is currently a bit too rough around the edges and abandoned to host a such major event. Too few quality hotels
      and restaurants I think.

[Noel Freeman]

Mark Chaplin - you said, "Deal would be better suited to the British Seniors or British Womens Open. But best of all the Walker Cup, 5000 spectators, no ropes or grandstands."

I would love to see Deal get a British Seniors, Women's Open or Walker Cup. Do you think the Amateur Championship being there in 2013 help in that regard?

Scott - Deal obviously has the physical space to accommodate an Open, but there are a couple of other problems:

  1) Clubhouse & locker rooms: IMO there is not enough locker room or shower space at Deal to accommodate an event with a field
      the size of the Open. The clubhouse, while perfect for the membership and current events, would have a difficult time handling
      the throngs of players, media, and hanger-ons that would be present.

  2) The town of Deal... while a pleasant little town, I don't think Deal would be up to the task of having such a crowd of people
      invade the city. It is currently a bit too rough around the edges and abandoned to host a such major event. Too few quality hotels
      and restaurants I think.

Michael-

I don't understand your 2nd point.. Sandwich is a smaller town than Deal, it only has 7,000 people, a fourth the size of Deal (especially if you include Walmer)..

And with the new clubhouse at Deal, I don't think Sandwich's facilities are much bigger/better..

[Scott Warren]

Mike:

Commandeer the ladies' rooms for the week. Solved!

As far as logistical issues, if it works for Sandwich, it can't be an issue for Deal.

[Adrian_Stiff]

We have discussed this subject several times already. I think the R & A are wanting to take the Open Championship to more corners, and a Southern venue is wanted Porthcawl in particular. I think the infrastructure at Portrush was not enough even in 1951, its even further away now, RCD is the same story. Porthcawl is probably number 1 new venue but strangely suffers with internal spectator problems, it might need a complete chop about, new clubhouse and road in from the north, then its a maybe but its way short of the mark as it stands. Deal IMO has the best infrastructure for the ones not on the rotation, probably still needs a few changes to accomodate the stands and spectators, particularly at 18. I dont know RCP very well could the first have its tee put 100 yrds forward and the green 100 yards back and the second fairway moved a bit right? The 18th is a key area where you need the larger space.
That aside, I suppose it does seem why go to RCP when RSG is there. The Open generates lots of money and despite the wishes of some on here that money is used to benifit the whole game of golf worldwide, a lesser cash pull equals a smaller distribution to the poor and needy. It poses the question is there much wrong with the rotation as is and probably only a new candidate will get on the rota if it ticks all of the boxes, sadly for the great Northern Irish courses it just misses too many of those boxes but its a lovely romantic thought.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I dont know RCP very well could the first have its tee put 100 yrds forward and the green 100 yards back and the second fairway moved a bit right?

Adrian in your bathroom you'll find the soap...mouth. OK?

[ward peyronnin]

The 2006 Buda Cup dinner featured truly fascinating and lengthy remarks from Mr. Antony Shone who for decades oversaw the efforts of Hoylake to recover the open.

He revealed how truly mammoth a business operation a modern major is. The club's governors even wound up engineering a relocation of a commuter train so that the required practice areas could be accessed across the neighborhood where i believe either the club or another golf course owned property that ultimately served to replace the inadequate practice area at the club itself and provided excess parking. Overall it took them 25-30 years to overcome all the challenges to convince the R&A they could host an OPen at what I came to feel like may be the second most hallowed hall of golf. Extraordinary.

Perhaps others there that night could share their recollections or if Deal wants to return they should consider consulting with the folks at Hoylake. I gather it takes a very strong and inspired governing board to do all this as well.

[Michael Whitaker]

Noel - I have to admit that I have not spent much time in Sandwich, but even though the town is smaller the club facilities seemed much more massive than those available at Deal during my one and only visit to RSG last year. No?

I joined Deal because I love the intimacy and quaintness of the place. Everything about RSG feels BIG and Bold to me. just what the doctor ordered for a championship venue.

Scott - I was assuming that the new women's facilities would be used as well as the men's. Even so, would there be enough facilities to accommodate such a large contingent of golfers that a major championship would bring?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tony - Golf courses change, it happens all the time, Birkdale, Turnberry, Hoylake, Carnoustie, St Georges have all made significant changes to holes/greens in order to be better or more accomodating. You would need that space to the right of the 18th green, which kinda buggers the 1st as is.

[Scott Warren]

Adrian,

Far easier and cheaper to play the 1st or the 11th as the finishing hole, where there is ample space for grandstands around the green.

Rebuilding holes should be a last resort.

[Bill_McBride]

Deal would be better suited to the British Seniors or British Womens Open.

But best of all the Walker Cup, 5000 spectators, no ropes or grandstands.

One of our Pensacola members, A.B. Sisco, played in either the Senior Amateur or Open a couple of years ago at Deal and had a great time in spite of some terrible weather.

From what I've seen at St Andrews, Sandwich, Hoylake and Porthcawl, I would think that Chappers is right on, a high level R&A event would be just right for Deal because of its intimacy.  The Walker Cup would be perfect.

[Ben Stephens]

Adrian,

Far easier and cheaper to play the 1st or the 11th as the finishing hole, where there is ample space for grandstands around the green.

Rebuilding holes should be a last resort.

Scott/Adi,

As I said in a earlier thread reply there is room for grandstands on the 18th with a large one on the left handside, a single stand at the rear of the green and keep the right hand side open so the clubhouse is visible there is ample space for up to 8000 seats.

Cheers
Ben

[Adrian_Stiff]

Scott - I partly agree there might be a better numbering sequence, the 12th as a start is probably better although it kinda detracts, you do have lots of room at the end bit. I think the 1st as the 18th is still too restrictive for stands although the tee for 2 could be shifted slightly.
You cant have this both ways though guys, clearly from the topos RCP would need a few shifts to stage the championship.
Holes really can be made better with some changes, things do not need to be historical monuments, there is an evolution at most golf courses and in many instances the change was made because of betterment, they shifted lots 50 yards sideways at Turnberry for 16,it worked! Keep an 'Open mind'!!!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I somehow do not see this discussion unless RSG does not want to host the Open. Deal then would have to complete with Rye for the SE England slot. I think several courses including Royal Portcawl and St Edonoc both have an place at the table in bidding for an alternate to the current rotaltion. However I think Dornoch has a better claim. Of course Portrush or RCD also should be in an expansion talk.

[Scott Warren]

Rye? I love Rye, but it could never host an Open.

Tiger, why not have another host course within four hours by road of Britain's largest city and population centre? Seems crazy there is only one course - so one Open a decade - within cooee of London.

[Tags:]

Tags: