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Tom MacWood (Guest)

The Architects Golf Club
« on: January 29, 2002, 08:10:56 AM »
I stumbled upon the web site for the Architects GC and the course looks very interesting. Some of the holes seem to capture the style of the architects better than others. Which holes seem to work best and which holes do not? If you were planning a similar project what would you do differently - other architects or other aetypical holes? For example for Thomas I was thinking a modified Redan might be appropriate and for Tillinghast a Sahara-like par-5.

http://www.thearchitectsclub.com/gallery.htm
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2002, 08:23:11 AM »
I think its interesting how they assigned Hugh Wilson a par 5, seeing as how his jewel Merion East only has 2 of them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2002, 08:33:37 AM »
SPDB,

Actually, the Hugh Wilson hole is one of the best one's out there, and is almost a mirror-image of the challenges presented by Merion's 2nd.  

It's also the only place left on earth where the bunkers are reminiscent of Merion's original "White Faces" AND include love grass plantings.  It brought back a lot of memories, sadly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2002, 10:29:35 AM »
That's interesting. I see the resemblance. Throw those fairway bunkers on the other side of the fairway, and you would have a pretty good mirror image.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2002, 10:41:15 AM »
SPDB,
     What if they had used Crump and for a par 5 using the HHA inspiration? He only ever did ONE par 5 (I think).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2002, 01:10:21 PM »
Scott - I'm not terribly enamored of #7, and the HHA. I think Whitten and Kay were also trying to stay away from flat replicas, while sticking only to influences. I think it would be difficult to include a HHA-type of hazard without nearly replicating the hole, or seeming so.

Coincidentally, I have heard (and this may be only legend), that the term Hell's Half Acre was originally used by Walter Travis in his design at Columbia CC, in Bethesda, MD. It would seem to square with his notion of "penal" design, since Hell, is after all, eternal punishment.

Can anybody confirm or deny this?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2002, 01:26:25 PM »
Did Tillie use the inspiration at Five Farms on #14?  It's not a replica (not even a waste area), though both holes are straight and long.  PV #7 has the second waste area to contend with as well.  But the cross bunker/waste area certainly has it's merits, though many of these holes today take the driver out of the hands of the long hitters.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2002, 02:00:52 PM »
Tom MacWood:

The Architect's Club (TAC) is a very good conceptual design that features the grand masters of design. It is clearly worth a visit and I'm looking forward to seeing how well it matures for its second full season in maximizing the fast and firm conditions it needs to be as good as possible.

The course starts slow for the first six holes -- the best of the lot for the first third of the course is the short par-4 5th hole, a par-4 of 355 yards that uses Walter Travis design concepts. The hole features an array of options at the tee and a good green that requires a solid play with your approach. Be too bold and your ball will run through to the fringe and beyond.

TAC really picks up the pace starting at the 7th hole with a tough and demanding dog-leg right of 412 yards using A.W. Tillinghast as its inspiration. The tee shot must fade slightly to avoid a well positioned bunker on the right hand side of the fairway. The further left you go -- the further you avoid the bunker, but your approach only increases in distance and difficulty. The green is elevated nicely and the approach must guard against being too agrressive given the contour of the green from back to front. The 7th is a dynamite hole and well worth it's distinction as the #3 handicap hole at the course.

From the 7th through the 17th hole you face an interesting series of different type holes. The 10th at Riviera (George Thomas) has also been recreated conceptually at the same number at TAC.

May favorite holes? I especially like the 11th hole -- an uphill par-5 that dog-legs right around a series of bunkers using William Flynn as its stamp hole. Among other holes of note are the two Donald Ross par-4's (the only featured architect with two holes) the super demanding par-4 9th at 447 yards (#1 handicap hole) and rightly so since it usually plays into the summer prevailing wind out of the south although it's image of a Ross hole is strained in my humble opinion.Nonetheless, it's extremely demanding at the tee, approach and green. Love to see the hole cut in the back left because you must flirt with water that guards that side!

I also liked #14, a 482-yard par-4 that uses Perry Maxwell as its inspiration. The green has one lone solitary bunker and the green has enough contour to give you the feel of a Maxwell rolls. Fail to get the tee shot in the proper left side of the fairway and if the pin is cut right you'd better say a few prayers to get it close.

TAC concludes with a lackluster re-creation of a Trent Jones hole and I just think it's a bit of a let down given the build-up you get from #7 through #17.

Overall, kudos to architect Stephen Kay and consultant Ron Whitten. The course is well worth a visit given the quality of the terrain and the desire to give golfer's a real "education" on the different styles from the masters of the past. I just wish the last hole had a more lasting bite as the closer.

Black Tees -- 6,863 yards / Par- 71
Gold Tees -- 6,532 yards / Par-71
Blue Tees -- 6,172 yards / par-71

The disparity in yardage from the nines is something to note. Front nine from tips is 3,211 -- back nine totals 3,652 yards.

Keep in mind only architects who have died were used. It would be interesting to see another type project that uses modern designers (i.e. Nicklaus, Dye, Fazio, etc, etc) in a conceptual format. I like the way the course takes you through time from Old Tom Morris to the day of Robert Trent Jones, but the first third of the course is really just a warm-up to what lies ahead.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2002, 08:02:53 PM »
Sean/Matt
I'm not sure about the HHA at Columbia - it must have been the 6th - unfortunately its not there any longer. Hollywood appears to have had a similar hole, but I don't think either predates the 7th at PVGC.

I agree that they were trying to stay away from flat replicas, but the Tillinghast Sahara (or HHA) had many derivation - PVGC, Baltusrol, Fenway, Baltimore, Ridgewood, etc - even the 9th at SFGC and the 4th at Bethpage are similar in strategy. The concept would have given them plenty of flexibility. The current hole tries to exhibit the differing bunker styles at Bethpage, SFGC and Winged Foot - an interesting idea - but I think the bunkers styles were different at those courses for a reason. And if asked to identify which architect was responsible for that hole I'd be hard pressed.

And although they aren't exact copies the MacKenzie hole seems to be a copy of 13 at ANGC, the 10th a copy of the 10th Riviera and the Banks hole is a reverse Redan. Although the 13th at ANGC is a great hole I'm not sure it is aetypical of MacKenzie and the same with the 10th Riviera. I would've thought a boldly bunkered par-4.5 from MacKenzie - not unlike something found at Melbourne, Pasatiempo or CPC - would have been more illustrative of his style. And the modified long Redan that Thomas built on many of his courses would have been a natural, especially if they were able to create firm conditions.

The nest of bunkers on the Flynn hole seems to be a nod to Shinnecock (and maybe Indian Creek), but I'm not sure Shinnecock is typical. The one common feature I've found is Flynn's preference of routing holes diagonally over or up ridges which sets up some interesting strategic options.

What about Raynor's Short hole? Are the Travis fairway bunkers very deep?

The course seems to be heavy on the Golden Age - which is great - but because of that Morris and RTJ seem out of place. I would have thought Alison and Colt would have deserved their own holes - and what about Langford, Simpson, Park or Fowler? You can't include them all but I was surprised to see Banks and Emmet over some of those gentlemen.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2002, 08:21:45 PM »
Tom

The Raynor par 3 is the weakest hole there.  It's slightly uphill to a basic tiered green. The greenside bunker is pretty shallow.  And you can just make out-in the photo-the Christmas trees added for effect ::)

Overall, the course is reasonably good.  Although it did, at times, feel rather modern for a course inspired by mainly classic architects.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2002, 04:23:50 AM »
Paul
I've only played and seen a handful of Raynor courses, but that Raynor par-3 doesn't look like anything I've run across and I don't normally associate stair-stepped greens with him. One of his strong suit seemed to be the Short hole - Chicago, Camargo and Shoreacres all have very good ones that standout in my mind. They are normally very steep with bold contrasting features reflecting the angular or geometic Raynor style.

What did you think of the Colt hole?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2002, 05:09:39 AM »
Tom

I've played only one Raynor course: Yale.  And the hole did not resemble any hole there.

I'm not sure why they went for 3 par 3s for Raynor, Banks and Macdonald?  I liked the Banks hole the best, although it certainly isn't a Redan; the write up claims it is, but then says it has a "bowl shaped green"!  It is just a good hole that used a natural ridge on the left. (although the bunkers weren't exactly "steam shovel" deep either)

The Colt hole is one of the weakest.  It's a fairly simple drop shot to a LARGE target.  Much too large and easy for Colt's style.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ron_Whitten

Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2002, 04:23:05 PM »
I come here not to defend The Architects Golf Club, but to explain some of it. For better or worse, I convinced Stephen Kay that we should present holes in chronological order, to give golfers a feel for the evolution of the game. (I also wanted the first couple of holes unirrigated, but that's another story.) Stephen wanted to start with Old Tom, I felt it only right to finish with Trent Jones (who died early in the design stage). It was strictly coincidence that Macdonald/Raynor & Banks all ended up as par 3 holes. The eighth is indeed the "weakest" hole, but hard to come up with an uphill par 3 that's going to dazzle anybody. Raynor did do multiple level greens, by the way, and we put one there for visibility. Nothing on the hole turned out quite as geometric as I'd hope, and the "Christmas trees" to the right were planted by the owners concerned about safety. I'm lobbying  to have them transplanted elsewhere.  The sixth hole (Colt & Alison) green may be too large for a short downhill hole, but this is a public course, and a small green would get beat to hell with ballmarks. Course architecture is mainly about compromise. I do have an idea about how to lengthen the hole, but, seriously, what's wrong with giving the average golfer one par 3 he'll actually hit in one and have a chance at a birdie?  Miss that green, by the way, and you won't feel it's that easy. The deepest bunkers on the course are on that hole.   As for the "Redan", if you'd read the yardage book closely, you'd note that, while Stephen wanted to create a faithful Redan, I convinced him to do something different (Redans are a dime a dozen), so we went with a slight punchbowl green that Charlie Banks built on many of his courses. I think it makes it a much better golf hole. (A Redan doesn't work that well on a downhill par 3. See Black Creek, for example.)  Matt Ward may be correct that the Trent Jones hole is "mediocre" (just 400 yards from the back - the routing wouldn't allow for anything longer) but there's always two schools of thought as far as closing holes - one that the 18th should be a ballbusting par 4, the other that it should be a match-play ending short one. In the case of Architects, it's the latter. I'm hoping this hole will get heavily planted with trees (leaving the rest of the course wide open) to reflect the Trent Jones era of excessive tree planting and to someday make it a hemmed-in 400 yard par 4.  I appreciate all comments and dissections of the course.  Having dished it out for so many years, I now have to learn to take it.  Oh yeah, why no Langford, Willie Park, etc.  Hey, we only had 18 holes. We chose Emmet , Travis, Hugh Wilson and a couple of others because  Stephen was more familiar with their architecture (and a fan of it) and because we thought we should highlight a few more East Coast designers because most of the clientele will be East coasters. (I had at one time proposed that we concentrate only on designers that had actually worked in New Jersey, but that would have precluded Mackenzie and a couple of others. Not George Thomas, though. )  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB1

Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2002, 04:41:36 PM »
Ron -
Thanks for stopping in and giving us some input on the creative direction of The Architects. I've never played it, but I am looking forward  to playing it this spring.

I really like what your idea about planting on the RTJ 18th. Sure some of us detest overplanting, but if you are going to make it true stylistic interpretation of the architects, you have to be thorough and complete, even if it means employing what some might consider regrettable architecture (i.e. overplanting trees).

Hope to see you in here more often.

Sean
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2002, 11:32:21 PM »
Ron

Thanks for replying.

I think you might agree that all the tree planting is unecessary, there's plenty of room, and I can't see any safety hazard at all.  Keep the open look!

From the architects you selected, Colt is the one that I really know, and I just was a little disappointed that he didn't get a tougher and more dramatic par 3.  Given that he built Calamity, Muirfield's 13th, St Georges Hill 8th...

But there I certainly liked many apsects of the course:

The 3rd: a good rolling par 5 with plenty of strategy dictated with the "Merion" bunkers.

The 4th with its attractive upward approach shot.

The 5th with the unusual, fall away ridge in the green.

The 9th with its crazy green.  We had a front right position, which I guess only the perfect high fade could hold?

The 10th, with the skinny green, which maybe didn't give enough advantage to the player who carried the fairway bunker.

The 11th a fine drive/approach hole sweeping around that ridge.

The 12th, as I stated above, I liked how the hole fitted into the natural ridge.  I was just not sure that is played like a Redan: does it reward the controlled draw?  One fine example of a (reverse) downhill Redan is the 7th at Sleepy Hollow.

The 14th rolled nicely. Although the green was a bit awkward with a right to left tilt and a front right bunker: the green shrugs off the running approach to the left.

The 15th with that quirky ridge in the green (but where's the chipping interest!).


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2002, 09:24:44 AM »
I'm glad Ron Whitten replied. I agree with Paul leaving the 18th without a cluttering of trees would work best.

The 18th hole, in my mind, is anticlimatic to a build-up that is well done in capturing the spirit of the designers it attempts to highlight. It is not about replicas but capturing the spirit and honoring the men who paved the way for today's game. The exact concepts may not be there on every hole precisely, but I found TAC is never boring, and, in fact, quite appealing. I liked a number of holes, as previously stated, and have to say the 9th may be one of the 3-4 toughest public par-4's in the Garden State.

I agree completely a finishing hole does not have be brutally long to satisfy its role as a closer, but the 18th at TAC just leaves you wanting it could have been so much more in capping a day on wonderful terrain with a rich mixture of different holes that are really fun to play. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BillV

Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2002, 06:59:41 AM »
redanman's got to step in here!  :D
Quote
(Redans are a dime a dozen), so we went with a slight punchbowl green that Charlie Banks built on many of his courses. I think it makes it a much better golf hole.   

Why call it a redan?

A par 3 is mostly just a green and a tee with window dressing in much of America.  Even the wonderful little 13th at Merion last year was stripped of all its grass save the green surface itself, and the rest was being moulded like so much adobe clay, god knows the final result.

A properly done redan (Not many in modern architecture) requires much more than an airmail letter.  Tom Doak built probably the best modern one I've seen at Apache Stronghold.  One can actually play it as a redan.

Also, the 8th at architects, being uphill could have allowed a semi or fully blind shot and the green would have been fully visible at the 2nd, 4th or 5th if one would look ahead.

I played Philmont North with a GD rater last year and I loved while he very strongly disliked the semi-blind uphill 3rd (Flagstick visible, green NOT previously visible).  It is a fine hole was maybe a 7-iron for me so no more than a 5 for most.  Ross built a beautiful little uphill quarry hole at LuLu #4 all of 107 yards.  Uphill 3's require more thought, are less "fair" and give a sense of uncertainty and anticipation missing from modern golf that architect's could have shown Joe and Jane Blow when they played.  I don't think liability would be a problem.

JMHO  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2002, 03:18:01 PM »
Ron,

I enjoyed the course.  I think any additional exposure and support for the architect is a good thing.  The web site is very good too.  I would suggest it would be great to continue to improve the history sections.

I got to the 5th tee after 4 pars.  Feeling a little confident I took out driver to the short Travis hole.  Too bad I drove it through the right fairway bunkers into that gnarley thick grass.  I had the worst lie I've seen in years.  Very nice.  The fall away back green toyed with my tenative play on the rest of the hole.

Then I succesfully hit my tee ball to 9 feet at the 6th. and three putted.  That green is not easy with a foggy brain.

Those two holes changed the whole match.  Well done.

The ninth green was pretty cool too.

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2002, 08:00:54 PM »
How cool would it be if the first green was maintained at a 4 on the stimp and the last green at 11? Or if the last few fairways were a lot greener and softer than the first dozen or so? Cart paths only on the last few holes? Have a posted notice that the green fee for the front nine is $28 and the green fee for the back (due to greater maintenance/cart paths, etc.)  is $62?

Talk about sending an accurate, in your face message!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

BillV (Guest)

Re: The Architects Golf Club
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2002, 11:42:24 PM »

Quote
redanman's got to step in here!  :D

Why call it a redan?

A par 3 is mostly just a green and a tee with window dressing in much of America.  Even the wonderful little 13th at Merion last year was stripped of all its grass save the green surface itself, and the rest was being moulded like so much adobe clay, god knows the final result.

A properly done redan (Not many in modern architecture) requires much more than an airmail letter.  Tom Doak built probably the best modern one I've seen at Apache Stronghold.  One can actually play it as a redan.

Also, the 8th at architects, being uphill could have allowed a semi or fully blind shot and the green would have been fully visible at the 2nd, 4th or 5th if one would look ahead.

I played Philmont North with a GD rater last year and I loved while he very strongly disliked the semi-blind uphill 3rd (Flagstick visible, green NOT previously visible).  It is a fine hole was maybe a 7-iron for me so no more than a 5 for most.  Ross built a beautiful little uphill quarry hole at LuLu #4 all of 107 yards.  Uphill 3's require more thought, are less "fair" and give a sense of uncertainty and anticipation missing from modern golf that architect's could have shown Joe and Jane Blow when they played.  I don't think liability would be a problem.

JMHO  
I doon't understand this quoted post.  I made it originally.  It is attributed to -1.

Anyway, I played Architect's again last Monday and found the 3 holes by the triumvirate much to my disappointment  yet again as it was a shame that the MacD, Banks and Raynor holes turned out so blah and unrepresentative of the service done by these guys.

Overall #3 Wilson, 5 Travis, 14 Maxwell, 16 Wilson were pretty good, interesting holes representative of style and the blind water hazard, not at all like Ross on #9 was the most queer feature overall.

My opinion, playing by myself, really looking, not betting for a coke or dollar or hot dog and not being distracted in general was higher than previously.  It is still not a top 100 modern by any means, but well worth seeing and about right where I put it on my NJ state list elsewhere a few days ago. Still more Architect's lite, though.
Overall conditioning and greens were quite good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »