An Interesting observation from our Administrator!

[RSLivingston_III]

A couple of points:
I don't think the "Yard" has changed in distance.
Jones was talking about hitting to the green of a par 4. I would think that distance would be accurate.
Full irrigation to me doesn't require pop-up heads and a computer to run. If you can stick heads out there and water greens and fairways anytime you want, I would call that full irrigation. I guess I look at some of the low end public courses today to get an idea of what it might have been like. Ialso get the impression that everyone thinks it never rained back then and the fairways were ALWAYS baked hard. I was reading the USGA articles and my impression was they were getting it figured out controlling irrigation. One of the articles "Golf course without a water system" from 1928, suggests to me that a lack of irrigation was becoming the exception. 1924 had an article on an "Inexpensive Fairway Sprinkler". What name course(s) by 1926 didn't have fairway irrigation?
The Hickories the top players used typically had shafts stiffer than anything we play now. They don't and didn't have to be swung "slowly". Only the mediocre shafted clubs for the amatuer golfers had flexable shafts. Ask Ran about the shafts in the set he is using. The Driver requires someone with a swing speed over 100 mph to make it work. They are all original shafts and heads.
In the 12 years I have been playing hickories, I have not seen a difference in trajectory in the balls. I started with Balata and play a Pro V1 now, the only difference is when I swing differently to produce a high or low trajectory shot. I change my swing to suit the course and conditions.
Cost is not a factor in how any of the hickorygolfers I know swing a club.
I think many of the novices that hit hickories well do so because of the added weight of the clubs. They are heavier and are "easier" to keep on plane.
The clubs don't have "Flat lies" unless you haven't had them fitted to you. Most of the clubs I get need to have the lie angle set back down 3 degrees.
The shafts don't have a lot of torque unless you have very poor clubs. You guys need to experience good examples and not the crap that validates the bad old stereotype.
Again, let's base our discussion of what was going on in the Golden Era on the Pro and top Amatuer players, not the mediocre club player and their equipment. The difference in the equipment is huge and of course the lesser players and there equipment were 90%+ of the equipment produced.
The group redanman is refering to is the Society of Hickory Golfers. It was formed by members of the US and UK teams for the Hickory Grail. This event is a British Golf Collectors event.
Tommy, the distance a ball goes is a function of the ball and the (Mass)x(accelleration) of the clubhead.

[ed_getka]

Ralph,
   I am interested in obtaining a brassie, and maybe something like a 7 iron. For the better quality clubs you refer to, what would the average cost be? And who would you recommend buying from? Thanks.

[TEPaul]

ed:

I know I can find a good hickory brassie for you and I'm pretty sure I can even find one for a little less than $10,000!! Are you interested? If so, just indicate that to me in your next post and I'll tell you where to send the check!

Hell, for the bargain basement price of $25,000 I think I may even have a shot at getting the great Ran Morrissett to part with his hickory brassie that I'd be happy to resell to you!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ralph,

On page 17 of The Pasatiempo Story, shown is the original SIGNED scorecard from Bobby Jones, Cyril Tolley Glenna Collett & Marion Hollins first ever round on Pasatiempo, Opening Day September 8th, 1929. That's three days short of 75 years to the day TODAY!

Here are the yardages of the holes, listed: original-today when compared to the 1929 Aerial.

#1  475-460 (Tee moved, now back close to original)
#2  510-442 (Tee shortened to omit play across drive)
#3  240-217 (Tee in same spot)
#4  350-395 (Tee in same spot)
#5  195-191 (Tee in same spot)
#6  565-521 (Tee was moved up about 20 yards)
#7  360-346 (Tee in same spot)
#8  145-177 (Tee in same spot or close to it, moved slightly right)
#9  500-489 (Tee in same spot)
#10 495-444 (Tee shortened to omit play across drive)
#11 400-384 (Tee in SAME SPOT*)
#12 395-376 (Tee in same spot)
#13 495-492 (Tee in same spot)
#14 390-426 (Tee moved WAY back)
#15 130-145 (Tee in same spot)
#16 390-395 (Tee in same spot)
#17 330-366 (Tee is in same spot, maybe moved left slightly)
#18 135-173 (Tee moved back right)

So the tees that haven't moved show different yardages, most longer, some shorter 75 years ago. And that's my point. Couple it with Dr. MacKenzie's Commandments on Golf Course Architecture, that there should always be a slight walk FORWARD to the next tee so the holes could be elastic in length for the future if neccessary. Much if not all of that elasticity has either been used or moved-up at Pasatiempo, as well as most other Classic golf courses. Was this because they were hitting 340 yard drives with a carry of 300-320 yards plus back then? Why wouldn't they have just used that elasticity back when they built it then and not years later when tee lengths were added?  Why did ANGC have to buy acreage from their next door neighbor, Augusta CC so they could further lengthen AGAIN, Dr. MacKenzie's famed 13th hole?

Another thing, given it was probably Mac that did the measuring, the chances of him doing it while nipping at the bottle were quite high, so those steps could get longer or shorter depending on how many jiggers he had drank to that point!

*...Jones thrilled the gallery when he attacked the Number 11 hole by driving the ball over the canyon far up into the Number 12 fairway. It was a feat which would be unlikely today because of the extensive growth of trees that block the path. Many have said, and it is written somewhere that hit a 300 yard drive to clear that canyon or baranca. Well which part of the baranca are they talking about!?!?!? I have never been able to find that out, but my guess is that he hit it over the 220-230 area which would allow him to run into a really good area to challenge the much different green back then. I'm sure Tom Doak can weigh-in on this one to help clarify it.

Let us not confuse what is written by over-exhuberant newspaper writers of the day who were no doubt thrilled themselves to see Bobby Jones in the most obscure of places--Santa Cruz. I don't doubt you for a moment that the effiences of hitting a 1920's ball compared to a modern day Pro V1 are close to the same, but something is different and if your claiming the clubs aren't and the lengthening of courses for the last 40 years is disputing that, I think you need to read into this further.

Considering the day, most paced-off course for measurement by simply walking and counting the steps. They didn't care so much about the yardage in those days as we do today, and as you know they didn't have devices that we do. I also don't think yardage was as much of a factor in designing a golf course as it is today. The Pasatiempo yardages above prove that the yard of today is different then it was back then. How much? Well, you can make the guess on your own, but I'll tell you this--as an Electrician, when working with measurements for the bending of conduit, I have learned in my 27 years of doing it that my measurements are going to be different then my tool partner's measurements--its a fact of human nature and it can be attributed to a lot of things. So if I'm calling down to him, "bend me a stub 90 at 16 5/8" exact, I better LEARN what his idea of 16 5/8" exactly is, other wise its not goingto fit and its going to have to be cut, or all new pipe bent. You'll  be wasting time to do it again as well as material. Its no different when it comes to yardages either. We all have different tape measures and some are longer or shorter then others!

But my very last question is: Why then is there such a concern over equipment that has driven myself and many others like Golf's Most Beloved Administrator to either buy hickory or even consider using it?

[RSLivingston_III]

Ed, e-mail me and I will see what I can do. The GCS is having there National meeting next month and "the guys" are bringing in a lot of clubs. We are having a little thing in Grand Rapids beforehand and most of the playables will end up here before they go there. Check the tournament page at Hickorygolf.com.

Tommy, sorry I had a brain fart. I thought you meant the "yard" changed in distance. Like from 32" to 36".
I know that the yardage of holes have changed, but didn't "they" also measure with a length of rope? I have a problem with assuming everything "they" did was sloppy, inept and turned out well through luck. It was not the stone ages back then. Give them a little credit. Many of the quoted shots "they" went out and measured afterwards because people wanted to know.
If I find the time I would like to replicate some of those shots. They cared a lot about the yardages otherwise they would not have put out so much effort quoting them. I know there were reporters that are more trustworthy than others, and OB Keeler is one of the few I tend to want to take literally.

The best test for you guys is to try hitting a duplicate of Jones' Mashie and see how close you can come to reaching 175 yards. I plan to manipulate one of mine into a performance duplicate that ya'll can hit. That club I documented and have all the length, loft, total weight, head weight, flex, grip size, etc. I have not yet documented the Driver so that club is out of consideration. I think some real world practical experiance will open your eyes.
Again I want to note that some of the balls "they" were using were hotter than a Pro V1. That the ball ads quoting sizes of 1.62" and smaller, with weights over 1.7oz, that should be a clue.
 
Jones, in one case was trying to drive the green of a dogleg par 4 of, I think, 340 yards at Inverness(?), maybe one of the Fazio'd holes. I don't have my books here, but I think it was Golf is my Game.

[Steve Lang]

 

As one who hit Rick's hickory driver from the upper #15 tee at Banff, I can echo Jonathon's comments that the ball flight and length weren't really much different than my old TM510.. but of course made with an easy swing, (so as to not see how much those clubs really cost) i pulled one slightly left easily 230 yds.. the club's bottom kick was something... and I was playing a ol' Rawlings Balata, just like my Clayman Autograph one..

[ed_getka]

Ralph,
  Are you in the Grand Rapids area? I will be in Grand Rapids on 9/22 and 9/25 to see Mike DeVries's new course and to get together with Joe Hancock.

[Bill Brightly]

I get yelled at for bringing back old threads...but this one was just too cool to pass up!

[jim_lewis]

The last time I spoke to Ran on the subject, he told me he had put away his hickories because he was tired of never breaking 80. I wonder if that statement was serious or like mine when I often swear I'm giving up the game altogether in favor of fishing.

[JC Jones]

1)  I think Ran is completely wrong and I think he uses Hickory clubs as a way to level the playing field with better players.

2)  Nobody in their right mind would make a special trip anywhere to see Joe Hancock.

3)  The argument is a complete non sequitur for 99.999% of golfers.  Architecture should not be viewed through the lens of the tour professional who can hit it 300 yards.  It should be viewed for the 99.999% of golfers who at best can hit it 270.  

[Jed Peters]

Tom:

I hit it so short I know full well what the original architect's intent was on most courses.

This came into play most at Jasper Park and CPC the times I've played there.

Jed

[Steve Lang]

   JC,

I'd reduce that to maybe 240..

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Just last week I had the pleasure to play with a fellow member of my club. He was all decked out in traditional golfing attire from years gone by, but what really astounded me was how he played with his hickory clubs. His irons were made by Macdonand Smith and his driver was made by Jack White of Sunningdale. He chose to play with a Wilson Staff ball as he said it was the softest ball he was aware of, and his clubs were undamage despite using them regularly.

I used to scoff when I read of the likes of Vardon, Ray, Braid, etc.  hitting drives 300 yards, but after seeing my colleague hitting his driver, I find no difficulty in believing these legends of the past were capable of such feats. Although my colleage used a modern ball, he told me that he had used specially made gutty percha balls in the past and hadn't noticed that much of a difference. His drives were routinely over 250 yds (some as long as 280 yds) and he could hit his long iron 200 yards. It was a real eye opener for me, eventhough I had played with hickory clubs as a 10 years old.

[TEPaul]

Interesting that this thread was reprised after six years.

Donal:

I've seen Ran Morrissett play with both hickory and modern equipment and although he should speak for himself on the subject, I must say I did not really notice that he gave up all that much distance using those hickories. I seem to recall that with his hickory driver he hit it quite a lot lower than his modern driver but if the course had any "run" to it----it seemed like he could get those hickory woods out there pretty far.

Perhaps one fairly significant factor with hickories vs modern equipment is a miss-hit with hickories does seem to be quite a bit worse in result compared to modern equipment. We do need to remember that most all old clubs were considerably smaller than modern equipment of the last twenty years or so.

[John Moore II]

I like the idea of playing a course with 'period' clubs in order to see what the designer was originally thinking. HOWEVER, this implies that the course is very, very similar to its original design. How many courses designed 75+ years ago are 90+ percent the same as they were when they were first constructed? Tee length doesn't count, as long as the course could be played from roughly the original yardage. But how many of them have bunkers in the same places, green contours near exactly the same, and so forth? And how many of them have the same shot values, etc.? That is a key question to ask if making the effort to play with period clubs.

[Bill Brightly]

JKM,

You are right, except you left out irrigation. Imagine how the old courses played and hard-packed fairways! And how hard that is to imitate today!

[John Moore II]

JKM,

You are right, except you left out irrigation. Imagine how the old courses played and hard-packed fairways! And how hard that is to imitate today!

Bill-I would point you towards some of Ralph Livingston's where he is fairly descriptive and provides examples of articles that seem to indicate that many, if not most, of the 'name' golf courses had at least rudimentary full fairway irrigation. Add to that, as was mentioned before, that fairway height of cut is much lower now than in years past and I fell that for the most part you have a wash in fairway speeds.

[RSLivingston_III]

1)  I think Ran is completely wrong and I think he uses Hickory clubs as a way to level the playing field with better players.

2)  Nobody in their right mind would make a special trip anywhere to see Joe Hancock.

3)  The argument is a complete non sequitur for 99.999% of golfers.  Architecture should not be viewed through the lens of the tour professional who can hit it 300 yards.  It should be viewed for the 99.999% of golfers who at best can hit it 270.  

Regarding No. 3, When I had previously said we should be using the pros/top Ams as the standard, I was referring to the hickory era and not the current era. There were HUGE differences in the equipment of that time where today most average players have clubs almost indistinguishable from what is commercially produced for top players.

[RSLivingston_III]

And I am going to "borrow" that quote from Ran in the first post. Can't believe I didn't grab it 6 years ago.

It should also be noted that the clubs of six years ago are are vastly different from today. Even I can see the great difference in the distances between today and 6 years ago. I don't believe we have any hickory players today hitting within 20 yards of a modern driver.

[Bill Brightly]

This reminds me that watching Ran view a course is quite a treat.

I played my first ever round a Bandon Trails with Ran, also a first for me. Now I was there to see the course, but I was also gonna grind out my pars and bogies and see how well I could score....and on the first 5 holes I turned around waiting to see Ran putt, but the ball was in his pocket and he was looking around! It is no accident that his reviews "see" as much as they depict!

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I've seen Ran Morrissett play with both hickory and modern equipment and although he should speak for himself on the subject, I must say I did not really notice that he gave up all that much distance using those hickories. I seem to recall that with his hickory driver he hit it quite a lot lower than his modern driver but if the course had any "run" to it----it seemed like he could get those hickory woods out there pretty far.

Perhaps one fairly significant factor with hickories vs modern equipment is a miss-hit with hickories does seem to be quite a bit worse in result compared to modern equipment. We do need to remember that most all old clubs were considerably smaller than modern equipment of the last twenty years or so.

TEPaul,

Totally agee with you there.

JKM,

This is where I have a difficulty in embracing the whole hickory experience. I still don't fully understand or appreciate why people play with hickory clubs. Those old courses don't exist anymore. Why play a 20 year old course with hickory clubs? You not getting a better experience or understanding of the architect's intentions, than the guy next to you playing with his 1980s clubs.

Is playing with hickory clubs a bit like owning a classic car? Maybe not, as I'm sure you wouldn't want to drive on the roads they had in the 1900s.

It's all or nothing with me. Perhaps the only place to get a better appreciation of hickory clubs is on one of those rudimentary little cash starved courses in the highlands of Scotland or here (the course where I learned to play):

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41990.0/

[PCCraig]

When I was in college in Boston and caddying at The Country Club, they were nice enough to let me borrow a set of hickories that the club owned to go out and play with on Mondays/Thursday mornings. They had bought a set to use as a semi-gag event on their 7th hole during tournaments (their oldest and maybe most severe green).

What I found when playing with them is that my normal swing that I used with my modern equipment didn't work so well and with the hickories I needed much shorter and more wrist snappy swing to be effective. I did get used to using them every so often and I remember my best score with them on the member's course being an 83 or so. But as said before that was when the course was in a super drought and playing as firm and fast as I'd ever seen it.

My 83 probably wouldn't of been good enough to qualify for the 1913 Open along with Francis Q!

[Ted Kramer]

This quote reminds me of the CLASSIC 80's surfing movie "North Shore". Chandler, the old school surf guru is teaching young Rick Kane to surf the big waves of Hawaii's North Shore. Rick wants to grab a new/modern surfboard and go to it . . . Chandler makes Rick learn to master an entire collection of long boards before letting him take a modern "big gun" out into the water. Thanks for sharing the quote.

-Ted