[Anthony_Nysse]

The Golf Channel just did a feature with Golf Course Superintendent, Chris Zugel. He said that the "first line" of bunkers are raked daily and each bunker on the property is raked and weeded at least once a week. I've heard numbers of over 1200 bunkers...

[Jed Peters]

I can't imagine it'd cost that much to deal with, since some of those bunkers are so "off the course" as to never seem to come into the line of play.

So the question is--does having those bunkers make it less expensive than having to cut and whisk the tall grass?

[Phil McDade]

I can't imagine it'd cost that much to deal with, since some of those bunkers are so "off the course" as to never seem to come into the line of play.

So the question is--does having those bunkers make it less expensive than having to cut and whisk the tall grass?

They have sheep to deal with that....

[Sean_A]

Sean, what's your definition of a Championship course? And what's an excessive maintenance budget?

Tim

Does it matter? I think you and others get the gist that championship golf equals far bigger maintenance dollars than the typical country club or public course budgets.  The focus should be more on is it good for golf to have these ultra conditioned and maintained courses showcased as role models - one of Pat's questions.  I was merely pointing out that I don't believe WS to be extra-ordinary expensive to maintain compared to other champiosnhip courses.   

Ciao

[Tim Nugent]

Sean, what's your definition of a Championship course? And what's an excessive maintenance budget?

Tim

Does it matter? I think you and others get the gist that championship golf equals far bigger maintenance dollars than the typical country club or public course budgets.  The focus should be more on is it good for golf to have these ultra conditioned and maintained courses showcased as role models - one of Pat's questions.  I was merely pointing out that I don't believe WS to be extra-ordinary expensive to maintain compared to other champiosnhip courses.   

Ciao

Sean, I was just curious as to your point of view as your prism is different from ours. (I ask questions because I am looking for information, not trying to pick a fight or play "Gotcha". And I usually only ask those who's opinion I respect).  Does itmatter? Only to me. Also, the term "Championship Cpurse" gets bandied about so I wastrying to find out if you were referring to your gest or any course of a certain length.  I tend to agree that a course like WS should be less expensive to maintain than nearby parkland courses (like Butler, Cog Hill #4, Medina, Kemper Lakes  or Olympia Fields) that have held Championships.  I would also expect that there are other private clubs that easily outspend some of these.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tim,
  I would bet a bunch of money that the WS maintenance budget is very close to that of the courses your named above. Now, they may not spend as much time getting the greens fast, but there is A LOT of handwork there-greens are walk mowed, as are tees and approaches, bunkers are hand raked, they handwater, and there is A LOT of detail work. They carry a staff of 35. With greens fees of $340, plus $60 for a caddie, their conditions are as good as many private clubs.

[John Moore II]

JKM.

What percentage of the broad spectrum of amateur, retail golfers can hit it straight down the middle, as you advise ?

I don't know many, especially on windy sites

Well, I think when you factor in the $360~ price tag for a round, plus the hotel stay and such, you weed out a lot of the 'average' golfers (the 18+ handicap guys) and you get more to the guys who can manage their way around a course. I do think this course is penalizing, certainly. But not excessively so. Look at a course like Tobacco Road (which I seem to remember, Pat, you said you haven't played) or Pinehurst #2. Those are public courses that are very difficult for the average golfer to play, TR moreso because it charges lower rates and will tend to get the lesser skilled players. Little question:Oakmont is said to be one of the most difficult golf courses that one will ever see, I've never played there, but I'm fairly certain you have. Is Oakmont overly/unfairly difficult?

[David_Tepper]

Here is a slightly different angle to consider. Even if the 1,000+ bunkers do create an increase in the maintenance budget for the golf course, just think of the promotional/advertising value they have in terms of generating publicity, visibility and an identity for the course and the resort. Almost every telecast or article about the course has commented many times about the number of bunkers on the course. That generates a memorable image of the course that it would take a large advertising budget to buy.

Just as the island green on #17 identifies/brands the TPC Sawgrass in the golfing public's minds, the 1,000+ bunkers do the same for Whistling Straits.     



 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The course is only as penal as the tees one chooses and the day's wind speed.

Jud,

The wind seems to be an inherent element in the play of the golf course.

Are you saying that the bunkers have no impact on play and that only improper tee selection makes the course penal.

I'm watching the best golfers in the world find disaster on almost every hole.

Eric,

the game?

[Phil McDade]

I'm watching the best golfers in the world find disaster on almost every hole.[/b][/size][/color]

Patrick:

An exaggeration -- Kaymer, Elkington, McIlory and Watson are all under par for the day, as are Dufner, Z. Johnson and Villegas. D. Johnson is even for the day. Mickelson shot 67, Casey a 69. A few players are really struggling.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKM.

What percentage of the broad spectrum of amateur, retail golfers can hit it straight down the middle, as you advise ?

I don't know many, especially on windy sites

Well, I think when you factor in the $360~ price tag for a round, plus the hotel stay and such, you weed out a lot of the 'average' golfers (the 18+ handicap guys) and you get more to the guys who can manage their way around a course.


JKM,

That's an absurd conclusion, one not supported by any facts.


I do think this course is penalizing, certainly. But not excessively so.

Are you watching the same telecast ?
Do you see the severe off fairway slopes, bunkers, tall grass, impact of the wind.

Not excessively penalizing ?
What's your handicap ?


Look at a course like Tobacco Road (which I seem to remember, Pat, you said you haven't played) or Pinehurst #2.
Those are public courses that are very difficult for the average golfer to play, TR moreso because it charges lower rates and will tend to get the lesser skilled players.

I've never played TR, but, I am familiar with Pinehurst # 2 and don't find it to be very difficult to excessively penal for any level of golfer.


Little question:Oakmont is said to be one of the most difficult golf courses that one will ever see, I've never played there, but I'm fairly certain you have.   Is Oakmont overly/unfairly difficult?


It can be for the higher handicap,
However, Oakmont has a very large membership, whose handicaps range from very low to very high, and they seem to manage just fine.
Oakmont has a unique golfing culture, but, Oakmont isn't swept by the wind the way WS is.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Was asking spectators to block the sunlight a rules violation ?  ?  ?

[John Moore II]

JKM.

What percentage of the broad spectrum of amateur, retail golfers can hit it straight down the middle, as you advise ?

I don't know many, especially on windy sites

Well, I think when you factor in the $360~ price tag for a round, plus the hotel stay and such, you weed out a lot of the 'average' golfers (the 18+ handicap guys) and you get more to the guys who can manage their way around a course.


JKM,

That's an absurd conclusion, one not supported by any facts.


I do think this course is penalizing, certainly. But not excessively so.

Are you watching the same telecast ?
Do you see the severe off fairway slopes, bunkers, tall grass, impact of the wind.

Not excessively penalizing ?
What's your handicap ?
I have watched the telecast since 3pm. The only time I've seen guys pile up the big numbers was when they hit a bad shot and then compounded the mistake with an overly aggressive recovery. Elkington and Bubba took their medicine on 17 out of the real junk and stepped off with 4. Nick Watney tried to do too much and made a huge number. I see the same things you do. The course is fairly standard 'hard-par--easy-bogey' course, even for the 'average' golfer.

Look at a course like Tobacco Road (which I seem to remember, Pat, you said you haven't played) or Pinehurst #2.
Those are public courses that are very difficult for the average golfer to play, TR moreso because it charges lower rates and will tend to get the lesser skilled players.

I've never played TR, but, I am familiar with Pinehurst # 2 and don't find it to be very difficult to excessively penal for any level of golfer.

You and I can just disagree about #2. I think, when those greens are fast and the surrounds cut short (the day I snuck in my round they had just punched the course, so I didn't get the full effect of the greens), #2 can get out of hand real fast for even the best player, let alone a 20 handicap player.


Little question:Oakmont is said to be one of the most difficult golf courses that one will ever see, I've never played there, but I'm fairly certain you have.   Is Oakmont overly/unfairly difficult?


It can be for the higher handicap,
However, Oakmont has a very large membership, whose handicaps range from very low to very high, and they seem to manage just fine.
Oakmont has a unique golfing culture, but, Oakmont isn't swept by the wind the way WS is.

So you agree that for a high handicap player, Oakmont can be overly difficult. And indeed it would seem they do have a unique culture there. Perhaps Whistling Straits is trying to cultivate a similar culture on the public/resort side of the business? (and no, I have no proof they are)

[Tim Bert]

Was asking spectators to block the sunlight a rules violation ?  ?  ?

I was wondering the same thing.

[John Moore II]

Was asking spectators to block the sunlight a rules violation ?  ?  ?

I was wondering the same thing.

Was he in a bunker or waste area is the bigger question.

[Ted Harris]

did Pete Dye's excessive bunkers just cause Dustin Johnson a chance at the PGA Championship ?

the announcers have said all week how Dye was trying to recreate Ballybunion or Portrush but those courses don't have 1000 +++ bunkers

[Fred Yanni]

He originally asked for someone to stop moving.  The easy way was to have everything in shadow to end any chance of seeing people move.  If it's deemed to be a bunker than just wow it looked like a worn patch not a bunker.

[Tim Bert]

I can't accept them calling this a bunker. There were footsteps in it and spectators standing in it. This is the nightmare scenario of Dye's excessive bunkering. There is no way he shouldn't have been able to ground the club from there.

[Jud_T]

Looks like the eye candy bunker just jumped the shark

[John Moore II]

I can't accept them calling this a bunker. There were footsteps in it and spectators standing in it. This is the nightmare scenario of Dye's excessive bunkering. There is no way he shouldn't have been able to ground the club from there.

I agree totally. This was no way a bunker. It looks like a sandy hole. Its trampled down and walked all over by the gallery, its got trash in it, grass all over, no way its a bunker.

[Kevin Pallier]

I understand the sentiments for Dustin but surely one would normally play "safe" by not grounding the club anway ?

[Anthony_Nysse]

The staff at WS needs to order a bunch of grass seed and fill in all to the damn bunkers that are outside the line of play. DJohnson got screwed and they need to fix this before the next PGA.

[John Moore II]

I understand the sentiments for Dustin but surely one would normally play "safe" by not grounding the club anway ?

What earthly reason did he have to think that he was in a bunker? He was 40+ yards off the fairway, and deep into the gallery.

And now this rules official...was that really designed to be a bunker?

[Tom Walsh]

I know they showed him the numerous replays, but did any official go to the 'bunker' and look at it? real time? I know the rules and the local rules are a b****, but when is a bunker not a bunker?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I understand the sentiments for Dustin but surely one would normally play "safe" by not grounding the club anway ?


Kevin,

Everything is clearer when viewed from your couch.
In the heat of competition, coming to the last hole, in the lead, ala JVV, your mind isn't always functioning as it might or should.

It's also hard to alter your pre-shot routine.

But, perhaps an official should have warned him that his ball was in a hazard and not just an unkempt area.

PENAL ?   ?   ?

I rest my case

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