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George Pazin

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2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« on: August 13, 2010, 08:12:55 PM »
Surprised how little discussion there has been of the play, but I thought I'd start a thread anyway. Apologies in advance for those offended.

Question: Is late/early too big of an advantage? Is there any potentially better solution? I realize this has been prompted by the recent history, but I'm hard pressed to say anything other than it's a big advantage. Let me know if you feel otherwise, with supporting arguments, please.

Predictions: Still don't see Tiger doing it, even after yesterday's solid day. Also still think it's just a matter of time before he is dominant again. So I'm going with...damned if I know, no clue. How 'bout you? My heart is pullin' for Rory.

Course discussion: Does WS have to play softer than a traditional links, due to its severity? Would it be unplayable under links F&F conditions?

Heading home after a looooooooong hoooooooottttttttt day...next time you think it's hot out, imagine having a 35 foot 400 degree furnace running in your un-air-conditioned workplace.... :)

have a nice weekend, everyone.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2010, 08:24:20 PM »
Go Bubba!

;)

I think it was dry last time they were there. So I believe it can be played. It does present additional course management problems with the restrictive grass preventing run up shots.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Phil McDade

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2010, 09:00:07 PM »
George:

One of the announcers today suggested the course would be close to unplayable with the wind that popped up in the afternoon if the course was truly running F&F. Sheboygan has received about twice as much rain as usual in the months leading up the tournament, and there were rains right before it started (and another system that might dump more rain on it tonight).

I'm sort of hoping it gets fogged in tomorrow as well; looks like a change in the wind direction, with mich cooler air moving in, Sunday and Monday, and any significant delay tomorrow could lead to a Monday finish. I think the course is playing out pretty well -- players can score out there, but poor decisions can lead to bogeys and doubles. I like the ying and yang of how the course is playing -- some true birdie holes mixed with some tough-to-par holes.


Jud_T

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2010, 10:10:44 PM »
I don't know what a better solution is, but the early/late thing is getting old.  The course was playing 3-4 shots tougher late in the day today.  The only thing that saved them was that the blew they horn before dark...Might as well have a random draw each morning or let the top qualifiers play early/early.  I'm sure the networks would love that.....The fairest thing would actually be to let everyone play 9 each morning and 9 each afternoon.  I'm sure that'd go over real well..... ;D
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 10:14:14 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jay Flemma

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2010, 10:32:01 PM »
It's been a tough tournament because of the weather (keeping more players in the mix, especially the unknowns), and the stop start.  We have 78 p[layers left to finish their rounds.  It's murder trying to cover the event when it stops and starts and players don't come in as consistently for interviews.  Finally this afternoon we started to get some rhythm, then  darkness fell.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2010, 11:02:26 PM »
I think the course is playing too soft. The drives hot and stop after one bounce. The greens are amazingly soft. I am also amazed at how many guys are hitting it 20 to 30 years off line.

Adam Clayman

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2010, 11:06:26 PM »
Is it (approach looks) as repetitive as it looks on TV?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Matthew Sander

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2010, 11:12:24 PM »
Tiger,

That's a good point about players hitting the ball WAY off line, I noticed it as well.

If I'm not mistaken, the fairways at Whistling Straits are relatively wide for Championship standards, right? So that would make the misses even more off line. Does it seem that players generally miss extra wide on courses where there is little or no vertical definition? Obviously, trees can contain wild shots and lessen the effect of a wild drive. It just seems like the visual definition reigns in the wild ones a little bit...or is this perception just totally wrong??

Adam Clayman

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2010, 12:57:17 AM »
Matthew. Very good. The width takes them right out of their comfort zone. Maybe Jones n Mackenzie knew what they were doing befor all those trees sprouted up?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

M. Shea Sweeney

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2010, 12:59:02 AM »
Does Whistling Straits possess "championship quirk" ?

Phil McDade

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2010, 10:14:04 AM »
This just in -- the PGA has decided to split the field in half after the cut, with the lower half of those making the cut teeing off on #10 today, and the top half of those making the cut teeing off on #1. Being done to get the tournament in for a Sunday finish.

I can't recall, if ever, a major where the field post-cut was sent off two tees.

George Pazin

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2010, 10:58:03 AM »
Did they do it last year at Bethpage? Lots of rain then.

Jud, I kinda like the idea of letting top qualifiers go early/early. Gotta think about it more. My only thought was more along the lines of your suggestion for random draw. Can't see that working out well.

On Golf Channel this morning someone said perhaps the par 5s too heavily favor the bombers. Anyone else think this? Maybe you should be rewarded if you're carrying it 325... :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Niall C

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2010, 11:17:19 AM »
I have only managed to see a bit of Thursdays play but a couple of comments about the course.

Firstly it might be dressed up like a links but iclearly from the design/shaping it doesn't play like one. There appears to be an awful lot of forced carry approach shots. Hard to say how fast and firm it was from the little I saw on Thursday.

Secondly the rough doesn't look too penal which gives the players a chance to recover which frankly I like to see. Even the Open tends to have heavy rough these days.

Niall

RJ_Daley

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2010, 12:01:00 PM »
Niall, I'm not sure I understand where you see the course as not being too penal.  It seems to me that miscues are easily potential double and triple bogies.  Soem recovery shots are impossible to play towards a green or hole.  I think some of the recovery we have seen from the junk or off line out of the way squiggly bunkers, are just a tribute to the skill and strength of the players making the shots.  It seems to me, that playing this course by a mere mortal, even from up tees would be about as penal as you could handle, should you find yourself off line.  I suppose if you want to surrender to a notion of just breaking 100, as a 12-15 handicapper, you could just tick-tack your way around and yield every hole to getting on in one or two over regulation, and hope for a great pitch-chip and putt game.  

They changed the approaches to 8 and 13 before the 04 PGA when they eliminated the higher deeper FW approaches where one could bound a ball towards the green from well left of the green.  Now it is more of a target approach.  The tinkering with 18s left side is an interesting study in Mr Kohler and Dye's mindset on just what to do with it.  I sat there Thurs next to the location of the second shot on the high right side mound and thought about this for quite a while.  No one that came through while I was there even tried to carry the bunker nest.  I thought that the carry area could have been done differently, with either merely high fescue, and one or two bunkers, or church pew sort of configurations.  But, they chose the squiggly meandering bunker nest with interspersed bluegrass rough turf.  Either way, it makes for a total puzzlement of what will become of your chances, should you tug one or try to carry it and fall short.  But, even if we get to the last round with someone needing birdie on 18 to get in the race, I don't see them going for it, if they aren't Bubba long.  I think they will all take the right safe side, IMO.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 12:03:50 PM by RJ_Daley »
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Adam Clayman

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2010, 12:03:17 PM »
One of the issues I always have on a Pete course is the difficulty in reading the greens. And from some of the putts I'm watching, so do these guys There always seems to be too much going on internally, and, on such a micro scale, that a player who doesn't like to take a lot of time stalking every putt, is at quite the disadvantage. Of course, they could just say "screw everybody behind" and take their full monty time of it.

IBF made the comment earlier today, how much easier it will be for the boys to read the greens today because of the bright sun. Somehow, that ability escapes me. Can anyone of you good players confirm?

Naill, I tried watching on Thursday, but when I tuned in they were at commercial, when they got back, they showed 4 golf shots, went to commercial. Got back and literally, showed one golf shot and went to commercial. I'd had enough.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Phil McDade

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2010, 01:05:13 PM »
Adam:

There is, I think, a lot of movement in the greens, but they are for the most part very large greens, and Dye built most of them with either a "green within a green" concept or greens with distinct halves to them (6 and 12 most notably, but a few others as well). I think Dye with the greens at WS was trying to tell players -- get the ball to the right section with approach shots, and you'll be left with putts that are relatively easy to read, without a ton of break. Put the ball in the wrong section, and you have to deal with lots of slopes and different sections of the green. (I don't see players aiming their putts two or three feet outside the hole from 10 feet away ala Pebble Beach, for instance, where the greens are notably tilted.)

Granted, getting to some of those green sections is easier on some holes than others --notably 18, where nearly every player this morning was hitting fairway/utility woods into the greens. But even Tiger -- who's having a very good week so far with the putter ;) -- managed to nearly hole a double-breaking putt from one section to another at 18 this morning.


Sean Leary

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2010, 02:22:25 PM »
Just saw on TV that the fairways are fescue, which I didn't know. I wonder why they don't play firmer and faster like a links? Is it because it isn't a sand base?

Adam Clayman

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2010, 02:31:28 PM »
Sean. Are they still fescue? I know that was their original intent but with all the reported problems from years back I just0assumed they went with something else. I type this from the Turtle bar balcony where its obvious recent rains have made our fescue look downright irredescent.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

PThomas

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2010, 02:49:04 PM »
what a fabulous looking course on tv!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

RJ_Daley

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2010, 02:55:45 PM »
I believe they converted the original sand capped over clay base soils of rye/fescue FWs to bent, and have blue intermediate roughs.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Sean Leary

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2010, 03:05:59 PM »
Adam,

I thought the same as you did. Just noting what it said on TV.

V. Kmetz

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2010, 04:19:02 PM »
I know it is just an opinion and seems to contradict a lot of the detailed analysis that has been bandied on this brief thread but...

To me this place looks like the most complete mess I have ever seen.  Hundreds (perhaps thousands?) of unnecessary sand pits dotting every inch of the place.  wild rough, heavy winds played along cliff sides.

It's just all intimidation and I can't imagine ponying up a month's rent/car payment to go and think it fun.  I might lose 18 balls on that course, 6 at a minimum and I'm still (barely) a single digit handicap.

Anything this nuts is a great test for the today's pros, but this is everything overly-hectored point to point-or-death golf is.  I can barely watch it for its complete lack of connection to the classic architecture and frank challenges found on most of the courses discussed here with any regularity.

It kills me to hear a champion I admie (and an enjoyable commentator) like Faldo gushing about it's linksy charm.  I can only chalk it up to the fact that such courses only appeal to the best players and not the other 99.98%.  And - if true - tells me a lot.

cheers

vk

Doesn't mean I'm right...just the way I see it.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Garland Bayley

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2010, 10:28:43 PM »
An article in Golf Digest awhile ago said Pete Dye was going to put in rumpled closely mown chipping areas. Any evidence of those?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Phil McDade

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2010, 12:51:59 PM »
Anyone watching today? Wind has picked up considerably, and from a different direction than the previous days. WS might play today as Dye intended it to...


Todd Bell

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Re: 2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2010, 01:33:49 PM »
If WS played like a true links course, how many AMERICAN guests would actually enjoy it and want to come back and play it again? 

Unfortunately, the overall consensus on GCA is a very small minority of how Americans assess the architecture and playability of a golf course. 

The only want lush green turf.  Everything else is trivial.

The WS "All hat, no cowboy" argument on here is no less dogmatic.  If this course had an est. 1928 sign at the entrance, most on here would be drooling on their keyboard. 

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