[Paul Turner]

Rich

Some of the most memorable courses have a strong change of mood within a round.  Doak hits the nail on the head when he descibes St Enodoc and how the mood swings within a round really get under the skin.  It's a course that has 3/4 different moods but also somehow comes together as a whole.  Pacific Dunes appeared to be like this too, with maybe 3 or 4 different mood swings. But from your posts I think you thought it didn't quite come together? (I only played half of the course).  

Dornoch too, has 3 or more different mood swings.  Cruden Bay also has some distinct changes that make it so memorable.

St Enodoc, Dornoch and Cruden Bay are all great walks.  The routings are are simpy the most scenic, circular walk.

Maybe courses with two loops of nine always lose a bit of flow?  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Ed
You would think walks of that length would kill a course's flow, but Cape Breton is unique. The actual land formation known as Cape Breton is an island that occupies the northern part of Nova Scotia. The island is ringed by a highway (The Cabot Trail) which is every bit as spectacular as Highway 1. The golf course is within a National Park and starts near the sea and moves inland toward the highlands not unlike the eastern Mountain ranges - like the Berkshires. From what I understand there are parts of the interior of Cape Breton - very dense forests and very wild terrrain - that have never been explored by man. So under this backdrop the course heads inland up into high ground, down into very deep gorges, over fast moving rivers and the finally back toward the sea. Becasue of the wild terrain there are some very long walks through beautiful country. Its almost as if you are hiking through a National park - which you are actually doing. (On one tee there is dramatic drop into a gorge and deep forest to the left, I was startled by some rustling in the trees, out popped a man fully equiped with back pack/tent/etc. and about a three to four day growth, he looked as shocked as me, he had a look like where the hell did this golf course come from!) These long walks create great anticipation and that anticipation is well rewarded. I recall on one particluraly long walk there was a swinging bridge above the rushing river. The course has back to back short par-4's and back to back par-5s - twice. But despite all of these unusual factors the course flows naturally. When I played the course there were no carts or cart paths, I wonder if the course has the same sense of journey since it has been changed.

Lou
I have been very critical of the changes made to Scioto. The creation of the island green 8th (the original hole featured a serpentine stream the wrapped around one side of the green, and I suspect it was the model for MV's 5th), the 'new' pond in front of the 17th (the hole totally out of character) and the rebunkering done by Dick Wilson. The creek the runs through the course is shored up by stone walls and I hate it, although that is a minor point. There is some Ross left, but not much. They have attempted to re-Ross many of Wilson's bunkers. I'm not fan of RTJ's 16th at ANGC. And the worst feature of OSU is the stupid white rocks that line the lake and all the streams - hideous. Every stranger I play with I ask their opinion of these ugly rocks, many of whom say they don't mind them and at which time I fill them in on my view.

I actually like the 6th hole at MV, that pond seems to fit the land and the hole prefectly, it looks like it belongs. I'm only expressing my opinion and I'm sure there are many who disagree with my assessment of MV. The course has changed a great deal since the 70's and continues to change. That is one of the problems, over the years as the changes have occured Nicklans's style and his associates have changed. The result in my mind is a hodge podge - not unlike Crooked Stick. I think I examine older courses as closely as new ones - so many have been altered and I'm interested in finding any inconsistancies or odd features that don't seem to fit. And I'm constantly looking at the 'natural' features found on the course and the natural features that surround the course - both old and new - to try to determine what the architect had to work with and how well he maximized what ever he was given.

[Richard_Goodale]

Paul

Great post. Makes me think a bit.  I'm not sure about the "mood swing" concept, even though the thought is ingtriguing.  To me what great courses have is more of a segue to variations on the theme than a complete change in the tune.  I think of Merion, with its gentle opening, which builds rapdily to a crescendo at the 5th and 6th, then goes into a lulling passage whcih can bite you in the middle adn then builds again after you cross Ardmore Avenue into a dramatic finish.  I think of Pebble Beach where you play in the trees, see your first glimpse of the ocean at 4, then the dramatic 7th which leads you to the nonpareil 8th, and then the great tests of golf at 9 and 10, then a gentler series of holes in the trees again until you burst out again on the pacific on the 17th.  I think of Shinnecock where you try to hit perfect shot after perfect shot over fariry level ground until you arrive at the mountain which is the 9th, and the range of mountains whihc are 10-12, and then you are back on the flat again until 18, when again you must climb that mountian one more time.

I'm far too close to Dornoch to think of it other than as a whole, which plays differently every time I experience it.

I think there are examples of 9-9 routings that flow.  Muirfield and Applebrook come to mind.

I'm not yet sure what slightly jars me about Pacific Dunes.  Perhaps it is the fact that I am apparently the only person on earth (or at least the GCA version of earth) who is so slightly jarred!  Perhaps it is the fact that my last memory of the course is staggering back to the clubhouse after walking 52 consecutive holes of golf on 54 year old legs.  Perhaps it is because the land itself has so much variety, from the Painswickean start, through the fescue prairies of the middle linksland, to the wild Irishness of many of the cliffside holes.  Perhaps it is because while I see many of the notes that are written on that landscape, I have yet to conjure up in my mind the symphony that was written or planned.  It could very well be my problem and not that of the course....

[TEPaul]

This is a super topic, Rich, albeit probably a very hard one to define the elements of the topic or questions about them--lots of subjectivity in all of this, no doubt.

It should also be a topic where noone argues about what might be right or wrong really (unless blantantly bad for some reason that most can agree on, but some don't).

I love all these somewhat undefinable elements and ideas used in this topic, "flow", "balance", "variety" but a couple of you have added some very interesting elements into this discussion like "mood swings" and particularly "connectedness".

When you filter through your mind some of the great courses of the world and you try to apply some of these elements and descripitions to them, I think you often find that they never really conform with each of (the courses) in some of these elements etc.

That to me just shows the overall beauty of golf architecture that for lack of a better word I will just call it's capacity or ability to be "different" (one course from another) and to still be fascinating and enjoyable! More and more today I become fascinated by the idea that Bill Coore seems to be getting more and more fascinated by too which is that capacity of good and very good and even great architecture to be very "different" and still most enjoyable and challenging to all!

I think C&C have been on a bit of a roll for a while and one of the things that might make them happiest is that they have been able to create very good courses that are also very  different from each other and likely for many of the reasons that are the elements of this topic. To go from Sand Hills to Kapalua to Talking Stick to Easthampton to Cusgowilla/Checheesee to Friar's Head to Hidden Creek is very different and even a few of those that might seem similar in site or location aren't much similar in some of the elements of this topic. I really don't want to hear any smart assed comments here either like; "Yeah their courses may be different but their hallmark rugged natural bunkers are still the same". Some things just should not change--and that may be the one!

Imagine Doak too going from Pacific Dunes to Lubbock Texas. Can't be more different and if he hits even a double down in Lubbock, I might be willing to declare the man a genius in his time!

But for the moment the element that was described as "connectedness" is most interesting to me. I do love the way Gil Hanse managed about the tightest "connectedness" of modern times at Applebrook (almost litigiously so) by melding more green chipping areas into the following tees as I for one have seen in new construction. And the irony to this is he did it following Inniscrone where some absolute idiot local supervisor ripped a page out of some RTJ Jr book and decided to slap something like a township zoning regulation on him by needlessly expanding this proximity on one hole thereby half ruining an otherwise really potential hole (#8).

But the best "connectedness" (extremely close green to tee proximity) I know of is probably Pine Valley and it was one of the supreme requirements of Crump pre-construction and even pre-project. And think of what this supreme requirement actually accomplished! It overcame an obstacle (Colt overcame it) by recommending that #5 green site get pushed way back to a length that Crump never conceived as possible for par 3 play (although different, some shades of #16 Cypress here) and one of the great and intimidating par 3s of the world came into being (#6 tee was already set!!).

If you think of the green to tee proximity (connectedness) of Pine Valley it's as tight as a ......whatever, (tick maybe), with one notable exception--#11 green to #12 tee. But did you know that had Crump contemplated a green site for #11 in the vicinity of the water tower that would have put the green tight onto #12 tee? The written rememberances, independently compilied by his two closest Pine Valley creation friends state undeniably had he lived #11 green site would have been altered to that location! Actually, the only glitch at Pine Valley, in my opinion, is and always has been one of too much connectedness in just one instance, and that's #15 tee is far too tight to #14 green! I believe had Crump lived he might have gotten #15 tee over on the small peninsula behind both #14 and #16 greens (still a very short walk).

Tom MacW:

I have just got to get to Cape Breton one of these days because I don't care whether the course was made by God himself I'm struggling to imagine how an otherwise good course with series of 300-400yd green to tee walks can possibly be described as a "good flow".

If I want to take a nice nature walk I'll go take a nature walk but if I want to play golf I can't imagine taking a green to tee nature walk too of what sounds like thousands and thousands of yards.

But I promise, if I do see Cape Breton and end up ageeing with you that it does flow well somehow, I will never doubt you again!  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I wouldn't describe it as a nice nature walk, its more like man against the elements. The actual playing of the golf course requires great skill and cunning. The holes are all quite natural and rely natural features mostly wild undulations as their primary feature. And many of the holes are very conventional, the next tee is adjacent to the green, but as you move farther into the dark areas and away from the sea and civilazation, the terrain gets more severe and the walks become longer. At this point the walks are not so much nature walks - although they are quite scenic - but more survival walks. Wow this is a pretty long walk, I wonder if maybe I took the wrong path and if I did take the wrong path they may find bones out here a decade or two from now. One of your final long walks is back in civilazation is across a main road and by a Catholic church - I thought about stopping. I'm not sure if Thomson set this up deliberately, but the long walks combined with some very normal walks and the excellene of the golf create a unique psychological battle (early on you play beside the graveyard of the same church). Add to it the the totally different terrains - seaside, lowlying areas bordering inlets of water, very severe hills into the dark forest, gorges and river valleys, and then back finally at the sea with its rugged coastline. In my experience it is one the best examples of golf working with the elements - Cypress Point and Sand Hills are two others that come to mind and they all possess great flow.

I'm very hesitant to return to Cape Breton for fear that it is not the same.

[Dan Kelly]

Tom I --

You SHOULD get to Cape Breton sometime. The Highlands Links is a very fine, extremely fun golf course. I wish it were 1,500 miles closer to me -- or vice versa. (I can't recall, exactly, but the locals' season rate, when I visited a few years ago, was less than a round at Pebble. This is, after all, New Scotland!)

There are some LONG, long walks between greens and tees. Great walks, through the woods. Yes, nature walks -- and completely enjoyable, too, if you like to walk and you don't mind a bit of birdwatching in the middle of a round of golf. I don't -- so long as what's ahead justifies the effort. The Highlands Links does.

Yes, the long walks interrupt the FLOW of the course -- if your definition of "flow" requires that one be able to finish one hole and nearly immediately begin the next. But, to my way of thinking, that's an unnecessarily and unwisely limited definition of the word. And I know you don't want to be unwise!

I'd suggest looking at the word itself: flow. What flows? Well, let's see. Liquids flow. Lava flows. Molasses flows. Water flows. Rivers flow.

RIVERS! That's it! That's what the Highlands Links feels like, in its flow. It feels like a fine old whitewater river -- alternating between big, tempestuous, wild-riding sections (most of the holes there) and slow, flat, quiet stretches where one can take a breather and think about the wild ride just past and the one just ahead.

Some courses are collections of holes.

Some courses are courses.

Some courses -- the best of them, in my experience -- are JOURNEYS.

[GeoffreyC]

I find there are very few long walks between greens and the next tee that are good or add to the flow in any positive way. BillV first pointed out the positive features of the walk between 17 green and 18 tee at Ocean Forest.  That was a good job by Rees but then there is the 1/2 mile to the clubhouse from 18 green  

I HATE the walk from the 9th green to the 10th tee at Yale.  It's through beautiful quiet woods yet it only makes me tired for a very difficult tee shot on #10.  No inspiration there and I think its one place that does interupt the otherwise great flow of holes.  

I may need to see Cape Breton but I find it hard to believe the long walks are a positive.   I don't buy it when you can say "At this point the walks are not so much nature walks - although they are quite scenic - but more survival walks.  Why does it work here but not at some cartball course where you shlep your bag and walk?

[TEPaul]

You got it GeoffreyC, long green to tee walks are not good no matter how you define them--nature walks, scenic walks or survival walks.

If I wanted to take a survival walk I'd just go on down to nearby Tattersal, sign a liability release and try to persuade them to let me walk. It would be a survival walk and the only difference between Tattersal and Cape Breton is at Tattersal if I didn't survive I would be cart road kill where at Cape Breton at least I'd have a chance of dying near a church or in a cemetary!

But long green to tee walks are long walks period and we should call a spade a spade here! I'm certain that Cape Breton and it's golf holes are a ton more interesting, natural  and fun than Tattersal's may be but still thousands of yards of non golf walking just ain't good no matter what you just played or are going to play next hundreds of yards on!

As Mammy said to Scarlett; "It ain't fittin', it JUST AIN"T FITTIN'!

[Dan Kelly]

And as Rhett said to Scarlett: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."

They aren't "survival walks." Cape Breton is not the Himalayas.

They're strolls in the woods!

Stop to smell the pines!

Modified to add   -- lest someone   get the idea that I'm doing anything other than having a little fun with Doyen Tom I.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Geoffrey
Have you ever been lost in the wilderness? Have you ever played a golf course in which - other than the golf course -there was no sign of man or civilization?

I've only experienced it twice once at Sand Hills prior to its opening and again at Cape Breton. What adds to that feeling of total isolation is the location of both courses. The surreal experience of traveling to the Sand Hills magnifies that feeling. Likewise its not easy to get to Nova Scotia (usually by boat) and Cape Breton is the farthest most isolated portion of Nova Scotia. The specatacular beauty of the provence also adds to that isolated end-of-the-earth sureal quality. The combination of the difficult but spectacular journey to these far flung courses plus the journey while playing them (Cape Breton is particular) and cart ball is not something that comes to mind. When I played SH there was no Ben's porch, there were no signs, there was nothing but a golf course, in fact it took nearly an hour to make my way back to the clubhouse after the round because I was lost and disoriented (just endless sand hills in every direction). When I played Cape Breton, there were no carts, there were no cart paths, there were no paved areas and there were no golfers. There was only a fabulous golf course and a network of dirt trails with very few signs of man. I'm disapointed that the course was altered to accomondate carts and you might be correct in saying the course is nothing more than cart ball, and maybe the long drives do break up the flow. I don't know. I'd be curious to what percentage of golfers walk the course today.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Really the evaluation of flow and variety is really a product of the routing. How well do the holes relate to one another, did the architect take advantage of the sites attributes and does it result in an interesting golf course. How would you rate the routing of Cape Breton? Is it awkward or flawed due to the long walks or would you describe the routing as genius or some where in between? I'd lean toward genius. In fact Stanley Thompson may be in a class by himself when it comes to routing -- and drinking!

[GeoffreyC]

Tom

I've been backpacking in the Sierras where a topo map was my only way of knowing where I was but thankfully I was never lost. I was there specifically to get out in nature, observe and photograph and to relax.  I didn't want my golf clubs to be with me during those times (a 40 pound pack was enough) nor do I want to lug a golf bag through the woods between holes when the purpose of my relaxation is playing golf!

When I play golf the surroundings are certainly important.  Natural settings, woods, the ocean and sand dunes all can make for a great golf course and golfing experience, however, the flow of a GOLF COURSE is the topic of this discussion and I still can't see how the golfing is positively influenced  by multiple walks through the woods where you could get lost.

Would Sand Hills be as good or better a golf course if you didn't have an hour walk back to the clubhouse after 18?

Would Thompson have lost out on magnificent parts of the property and resulting golf holes if he tried to route the course without the long walks?  Is that why you think he routed the course that way or do you think he purposly wanted players to enjoy the woods between holes?

[Richard_Goodale]

Geoff

An hour's walk back form the 18th at Sand Hills?  Really!!??  If so, now I know the attraction of Ben's Porch!

[TEPaul]

Dan Kelly:

I see you asked if there was a lawyer in the house and specifically concering the issue of close green to tee proximity.

I'm no lawyer but I did do a ton of study and research for our club when we were considering what to do about our range due to age old liability and safety issues.

What I did is pull up about every known golf liability case to do with getting hit (or the danger of it) anywhere I could but mostly from the NCA in Washington that tends to track these things.

Basically we all know that anyone can sue and anyone else for practically anything but that aside a club probably just needs to be aware of the whole issue and basically just do the best they can with what I can see is out there involving case study. Failing to do the best they can under the particular circumstances they may have a problem, which would probably include all desision makers (architects included).

I'm certain, no matter what I say here there'll be a few architects that will post on here about what I say and disagree with me, but I expect that and it's defiinitely their right and certainly an ongoing concern of theirs.

But basically the law has tended to look at intent and also negligence factors in most of their rulings that will constitute liability. Failing some kind of evidence of those things they seem to just let the cases go. I came away from all the research with a few basic guidelines. First, case law has changed quite a bit in the last number of years to include more often these days not just the hitter as libelous most of the time and now can include others, certainly architects and related descision makers and also the golf clubs themselves.

But the thing that seems to be quite overriding is that the law looks and golf and this kind of problem as very much a situation of never being able to create a perfectly safe world. In other words there are situations where people are going to get hit regardless and that's just the way it's been and the way it is. But certainly we do live in a more litigious world than ever before so lawyers will keep trying new and clever tactics and avenues and that has shown itself in recent case law and will continue to do so, I'm sure.

One notable case was the par 3 at, I think, Essex C.C in Mass where the club was ordered to redesign the hole or tee somewhat because a recent purchaser of a contiguous house claimed he was at the other end of a firing range and nobody had informed him of that in the sale. I think the realtor got sued too!

For us and our range safety and liability concerns we tended to cite the examples of Merion, for some reason, as examples of a number of inherently unsafe and libelous hole and road situations but the point is that's the way it's always been and our lawyer concluded that their club had managed to do the best they could with a bad situation and that's the way a judge would look at it. In other words a judge would not make the club close a hole if they have no options for it or do something that would be clearly detrimental to the golf course.

The point I guess is if all parties are doing the very best they can then that should be enough regardless if some unsafe or potentially libelous situation may remain. So I guess it sort of falls into the realm of the possible or even the practical to a large degree!

Not to diverge but this would satisfy me if I were building a course or trying to resolve a safety and liability concern. If I was building a golf course I would like to find an architect who would be willing to meld green chipping areas and tees as closely as Gil Hanse did at Applebrook. But if an architect resisted that I'm not sure if I'd go along or find a new architect who would do what Gil did.

The fact is that golfers can do the damnedest things with golf balls even in the face of the most extraordinary planning and I think the law tends to recognize that as a given and not libelous generally!

We also have a public road tight along the rightside of our first hole that's a safety issue and that was another issue the club asked us to resolve in our latest restoration plan.

Somewhat oddly to some, the formula that most architects seem to use for a problem like our first hole is to actually move the tees closer to the problem area which creates a wider angle for the golfer to play away from the problem area--the road on the right in our case.

Of course I had an engineer member of our club draw me a bunch of schematic trying to prove to me that this is not a solution for geometric reasons or whatever but what are you going to do? Many people even highly intelligent ones seem to see the same situation in different ways even if that means rewriting the truths of geometry, but again it's a matter to me of golfers being able to do the damnedest things with golf balls sometimes and the way the law thankfully seems to view that.

If, you don't mind, I'll relate a story about the damnedest thing I ever saw with a golf ball. I may have posted this on here a long time ago, can't remember as I've been on golfclubatlas a long time now.

My Dad and I were hitting balls on the range at Gulf Stream G.C in Delray a number of years ago and between us was this old guy who was a bigtime muckamuck who was possibly the worst golfer I've ever laid eyes on. I was in front of him and my Dad was behind him. He would swing and miss it, he would top it, hit it fat, slam down on it and the balls were going in directions that would almost seem to defy physics!

So my Dad gave me a wink and motioned for me to move back a few steps and get out of right angles from this guy as unbelievably a few of his shots almost hit me. So I did and after more chunking and slashing I hear an aaaargh, uunnhh, and I turn around and this guy is on the ground in a fetal postion with my Dad just about over him.

I thought for a moment that the man had a heart attack but as it turned out he's actually hit himself hard in the nuts with a golf ball.

My Dad finally stood the guy up and he actually went back to slashing and chunking. And my Dad siddles over to me and says; "Tommy, I'm an old guy and you know how much golf I've seen and played all over the world but what just happened there takes the cake from anything I've seen before."

Apparently Dad was so amazed at how bad this guy was he was standing behind him watching him and when he hit himself hard in the nuts Dad sprung to the rescue and actually the guy told Dad to help him up more from embarrasment then lack of concern about the pain!

Dad could absolutely not believe that it could be within the realm of physics for this guy to do what he had done to himself but he said; "I was standing there watching him and I saw it with my own eyes!"

So the point is Dan, that we can only do the best we can regarding liability and thankfully the judges of the land probably look at it that way too cuz they know that anything might be possible with a golfer and a ball no matter what you do to try to prevent it.

I would assume we might have a high degree of safety if we were sitting on a toilet inside a toilet stall but I know somehow, one of these days, somebody will probably get hit by a ball in there too!

If that ever happens and went to court, whoa, that would be a court transcript I would just love to read!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Geoffrey
What does the distance between the clubhouse and course have to do with quality of the golf course? I brought up my experince at SH to illustrate the total isolation one feels in a place like the sand hills of Nebraska or the middle of Cape Breton National Park - getting lost is a distinct possibility. They are two unique golf courses in my experience because of their locations and their isolated locations adds to the feeling one gets while playing the golf courses. Its not often one plays a golf course - or great portion of a golf course - and does not see another golfer or any other sign of civilization. There are certain long walks in golf - and long is relative term - that adds to the experience and that create a feeling of anticipation. The walk from the 14th green at CPC to the 15th tee, the walk up to the Back tee at #15 Shinnecock and others. Long walks are not always hurt the flow of a golf course. And if you would rather not lug your bag at Cape Breton you can now take a cart.

I suspect Thompson would have missed out on some interesting parts of the property, but the main reason was probably the severity of the terrain, it was just impossible for golf. I doubt he originally set out to create the psychological effect he created. Just as I doubt MacKenzie originally set out to create the effect he created. But I do not doubt once the golf holes were routed that they both thought about how they could bring the golfer from point A to point B in the most interesting and stimulating way. And they suceeded.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Rich
To be honest I have no idea how long the walk is back to the clubhouse at SH. I was totally lost. I took several wrong forks in the road and there were no signs and nothing but thousands of square miles of sand hills.

Geoffrey
I agree that natural features of a golf course adds to the experience - ocean, forest, dunes, etc - but they do not guarentee a great routing or golf course that flows effortlessly. Two examples - Cypress Point and Spyglass - one flows beautifully in and out of differing evironments, the other does not.

[Richard_Goodale]

TomP

By all means keep posting your thoughtful and well-written pieces on the arcana of GCA, but you should know that there are at least a few of us out there who wait with baited breath for those random posts, as above, which tell us about the things about which golf and life should really be concerned.  At least in my opinion.

Thanks.

Rich

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

I've never been lost in the wilderness playing golf but I thought I was lost in the wilderness a few times other than playing golf but each time just before I panicked I happened to run into some of those teeny little wheerthafugawi indians and I felt much better and they led me back to what I knew to be civilization but from some reason they didn't seem to know that!

Have I ever been on a golf course with absolutely no sign of man or civilization? Well, not exactly but I once was on a golf course with plenty of signs of man (plenty of people actually) but absolutely no sign of civilization at all! Basically just a sea of barbarianism and anarchy and not one scintilla of civilization, decency or gentility!

I started to hallucinate and I thought I was Dr. Livingston, but somehow I got back to my car and normalcy.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

TE
Yes I think you understand where I'm coming from coming from. You know that feeling, remember back to when you lost track of your mom in the grocery or when you woke up in drunken stuper in a strange bed.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

In all seriousness I'm just kidding about Cape Breton--but it would be interesting to try to pin down why Thompson did it that way--seriously!

Being the great researcher you are you might want to do a piece on the great architects that were also great drinkers and some of the great stuff they might have come up with because of that.

It's highly likely that Thompson might have been nursing one helluva hangover when he routed Cape Breton or possibly he was in the midst of really tying one on out in the woods at Cape Breton while routing. Maybe he even got lost himself when out there routing and just decided to go with his confusion before probably being rescued by one of those teeny Wheerthafugawi indians who led him back to square one.

We all know about the unusual mathematical front nine that Alister almost did at Crstyal and I'm convinced that William Flynn, possibly the greatest router of them all (seriously), suffered occasionally from the whirlies which would explain the fairly common circular inside/outside routings like Lehigh and Huntingdon Valley, among others!

But the most talented of all the architect/drinkers was undoubtable A.W. Tillinghast! Unfortunately most of his lubricated but unique brilliance has been altered and lost somehow with time.

I did run across a highly unusual hole of his, though, in upstate Pa a few years ago while officiating! On an otherwise fairly normal course he created the most multi-optional and fascinating little 241yd PAR 5 you can imagine! You can still see the vestiges of it! Unfortunately some idiotic golf or green chairman some time later redesigned and altered it into a fairly mundane long PAR 3!

No wonder Albert hated golf and green committees!

[Dan Kelly]

Tom I --

I hate to agree completely with someone, anyone, ever (that party-of-one thing, you know), but I have to agree completely with Rich.

Thanks for the liability report. Things sound better in the golf world, at least, regarding litigation, than the right-wing talk-show types would have us believe. Some common sense has survived, amid the madness of the tort-crazed!

But enough about the law: The story of that drive-to-the-nuts is the highlight of my day (so far).

I, too, wait with, ahem, bated (or 'bated -- from "abated") breath for the next such dispatch. ("Baited" looked fishy, didn't it, Rihc?  )

The strangest thing I've ever seen with a golf ball can't compare with yours, but what the hell:

I was playing with a friend and his wife. She had a big, big swing and usually hit the ball quite well. (Better than he did, as he'd be the first to tell you.)

We were playing at a public course in St. Paul. She was on the tee, with a driver. She swung, hard -- and hit the ball SO SLIGHTLY that it merely fell off the tee. The wind didn't knock it off; she hit it; we heard the tiniest imaginable click. And it dribbled off the tee.

You could try to do that for the rest of your life ... you could take every shag bag Ken Venturi has ever mentioned and fill it with balls ... and you couldn't duplicate it.

Or that nuts shot, either!

Thanks.

[GeoffreyC]

Tom

Agreed that an occasional isolated walk can enhance the flow of a golf course.  I loved the walk from the old #5 green at Pebble Beach to the 6th tee.  Your example at Shinnecock, 17 to 18 at Ocean Forest and I'm sure others work well.  None of these could be described as a survival walk.  Another poor example (ie survival walk) is the walk between 8 and 9 at Cruden Bay.  Yes there is a breathtaking view at #9 tee after you trek up the hill.  It's worth the walk but it does interupt the flow.

"What does the distance between the clubhouse and course have to do with quality of the golf course?"

Absolutely nothing of course.  You made it seem in your post that this was a positive as if the reflecting on a great round at Sand Hills for an hour while wandering in the dunes did in fact make it a better course.  I can't wait to see for myself in June but I'd imagine that looking down on the course  from Ben's porch rather then sand dunes without a course nearby would be nice too.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

I never lost track of my mom in a grocery store mostly because I don't ever remember being in one with her. But I'll guarantee you that at any age if I did go to one with her it would have been my Mission Impossible to make sure she didn't lose track of herself!

I have a very strange family, you see, and my half brother, who also happens to be my second cousin, once had his own grandmother (not mine) come to stay with him quite late in her life. My brother contracted polio in the Marines and at that time lived alone. His grandmother was one of those ladies (even stranger than my own mother) who had actually never even been in a kitchen in her entire life and actually prided herself on that fact, I believe. So very late one morning (the poor old lady must have been really hungry) he found her in his kitchen alone attempting to make toast. The only problem was she had a piece of bread plastered against the speaker of a portable radio and she was trying to toast it with the volume or tuner knobs!

I think I have woken up in strange beds in a drunken stupor but thankfully all those times have been lost to total blackouts.

There was a time, though, when at the age of about 1 1/2 I was forced to take a nap against my will. Somehow, in the middle of the day I got disoriented in the bed and completely lost in the dark and treacherous far end of the bed! I thought I was a goner, total darkness, confusion, near to suffocation and death (and I think before I'd ever run across one of those teeny Wheerthafugawi Indians in my life) I was rescue by this enormous cook we once had who untucked the sheets at the end of the bed with one hand but holding a meat clever in the other hand.

Anyway out from darkness and panic I popped to the sunlit uplands of the carpet at the foot of the bed.

If any of you wonder why I frequently post on Golfclubatlas throughtout the night, well.......

It's amazing I'm so normal really, I must be extremely strong of mind!

[TEPaul]

No more of all this triteness and these off the wall stories you silly people keep posting on here and clogging up Ran Morrissett's website!!

I'd like to get back to serious architectural discussion, if you don't mind.

[Ed_Baker]

Priceless Doyen,priceless.

My secretary is now convinced that I have gone completely mad,laughing hysterically at the goddamn computer!!!

That one is right up there with "Fireball Roberts."

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