News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2009, 11:48:11 PM »
Jason:

We are going to be putting the course back to its original 18-hole routing, and abandoning the rest when we are finished.  So we should not have to "rotate" any of the greens, if they didn't rotate them when the course was expanded.

TD
Which version of the course will you be restoring, the very early course or the course that Tilly worked on over the years?

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2009, 11:55:05 PM »
Here is a bit of the evolution of the course from the day it opened through 1918...

Shawnee CC - May 27, 1911 – Opening Day – 6,011 Yards Par 70


Out

1st ………. 313 ….. 4
2nd………. 370 ….. 4
3rd………. 457 ….. 5
4th………. 377 ….. 4
5th………. 102 ….. 3
6th………. 444 ….. 4
7th………. 522 ….. 5
8th………. 400 ….. 4
9th………. 165 …... 3

Total………. 3,150 ….. 36
   In

10th………. 339 ….. 4
11th………. 440 ….. 4
12th………. 326 ….. 4
13th………. 126 ….. 3
14th………. 421 ….. 4
15th………. 197 ….. 3
16th………. 246 ….. 4
17th………. 375 ….. 4
18th………. 391 ….. 4

Total………. 2,861 ….. 34

      Just prior to the opening of the course, Tilly noted several details about it:

•   “The tees are quite large with average dimensions of 20x30 feet.”
•   “The size of the greens is determined by the length of the hole.”
•   “The short fifth hole is provided with an undulating green protected by no less than two large side pits and thirty irregular mounds just beyond.”
•   “The long seventh offers a sloping green which has an area of nearly a half acre, but a large pit corner gathers in the third which throws too much from the line.”
•   “Little can be gleaned from these figures [shown above] for on paper the distance of 246 does not impress the critic – but the sixteenth offers a safe path to the cup after a long, well-placed drive and one that demands courage, while the pits close up to the green spell ‘Stop, Look and Listen’ before you play, if the stroke from the tee has been under-hit or off-line.”

1st Hole 313 yards par-4
      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The first hole is as difficult a hole as one will find in this country, and is just as it should be, inasmuch that when a tie takes place, one could not find a finer test to play off the 19th hole, and the better player will usually win right there. A long straight tee shot falls short of a deep twisting ‘gully,’ an awful chasm awaits the misplaced pitch, and yet it is an easy four if properly played. It works the mental qualities of man very much…”
      During the Shawnee Invitation Tournament on August 2, 1913, the hole is described this way in the September 1913 American Golfer: “Mr. Scott was defeated in the semi-final by the runner-up, Mr. Howard McCall, after a nineteen hole match, the finish of which is worthy of record. Mr. Scott had topped his drive and had to play short of the creek with his second… Mr. McCall got away a fine tee shot and carried the water with his second…”
      So this begs the question… Was there a change to this feature between July and September? I would think not and that the “gully” might be referred to as a gully wash in other areas of the country and that the water was either seasonal collection or the result of heavy rains that caused the Binniekill to back up into this after a rise in its level.

2nd Hole 370yards par-4
      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “I am not much of a kicker, but I am a critic, and can plainly see at the second hole a chance to lay-out a dog-leg hole better than the fourth at Myopia, Mass., and almost as nice as the famous dog-leg, or third, at Lake Placid Golf Club, in the Adirondacks, which has no superior in America…
      “A unique feature is brought into play here. One is ferried across the ‘Shawnee’ by cable to play off the tee to the second. The whole thing would not be more than a hundred-yard carry were the tee placed on the edge of the river near the first green. With the embankment on the far side trimmed up a bit, right here is their only chance of a dog-leg, and a gem it would be. Tillie and C.C. Worthington will avail themselves of this chance in the future; as it is, the hole is a nice two-shot one. A pulled shot from the tee or the fairway will find the river.”
      Fall of 1912: New tee and green for the 2nd hole lengthening the hole and course by approximately 100 yards.
      June 1913 American Golfer: “The Shawnee Country Club is contemplating the erection of a footbridge across the Binniekill, to take the place of the ferry which has been used for the past two years. The short trip in the ferry-boat always has been a pleasing feature, but whenever a large gallery follows the play, the delay in getting everyone across is unavoidable.
      “The Shawnee greens are coming along beautifully, notably the new ones on numbers 2, 3, 6 and 11, which were remade last fall, and the course generally will be in excellent condition for the season’s events.”

3rd Hole 457 yards par-5
      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The third can be reached by two long-wood shots. The green is a beauty, and quite rolling.”
      Fall of 1912 - New green.
      June 1913 - American Golfer: “The Shawnee greens are coming along beautifully, notably the new ones on numbers… 3… which were remade last fall”

4th Hole 377 yards par-4
      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The fourth is a rare two-shotter, with a slight bend towards the green. A large hill with a trap at the foot, catches the puller, as does a trap to the right, a slicer.”

5th hole 102 yards par-3
      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “An accurate pitch to the short fifth is all that is necessary to secure a three, but there are so many traps that one can easily take a five to it.”
6th Hole 444 yards par-4
      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “Another splendid two-shot hole is the sixth.”
            Fall of 1912 – New Green.
      June 1913 - American Golfer: “The Shawnee greens are coming along beautifully, notably the new ones on numbers… 6… which were remade last fall”
      June 1917 – American Golfer: “Mr. Tillinghast is preparing models for the development of the sixth… holes at Shawnee. Until now… have remained almost precisely as they were when he laid them out in 1910…”
      July 1917 – American Golfer: “The additional teeing grounds on the 6th will make it a two-shotter under all conditions. These improvements possibly can be completed before… early in July.”
      June 1917 - American Golfer: “Mr. A.W. Tillinghast is preparing models [plasticene] for the development of the sixth… holes at Shawnee. Until now these holes have remained almost precisely as they were when he laid them out in 1910…”
      July 1917 - American Golfer: “The development of the… additional teeing grounds on the 6th will make it a two-shotter under all conditions…”


Phil_the_Author

Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2009, 11:55:59 PM »
7th Hole 522 yards par-5
      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The seventh runs along for a distance of 522 yards in a valley very much similar to the first hole as Newcastle, County Down, Ireland, but it lacks the ‘dunes’ on the right. I saw Reginald S. Worthington, with two prodigious strokes, reach the edge of the green, but there are few who can outdrive ‘Reggie.’
      September 1913 - Fairway bunkers (“pits”) added on the 7th hole. American Golfer: “They took themselves off to the island where the Shawnee man had a gang of workmen constructing pits along the long seventh hole…” Note – especially during the first two decades of the 20th century, especially throughout Pennsylvania and New Jersey, it was common practice that new courses would be built and have the fairway bunkers and even some greenside bunkers added in after the course had been open for play for a while. This most likely can be traced to the success of the Fownes at Oakmont who added new bunkers continuously over the years after the course was designed and open for play in 1902.

8th Hole 400 yards par-4
      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The eighth is another example of a beautifully placed two-shotter, a grand test of golf.”

9th Hole 165 yards par-3
      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The ninth is a cleek shot, uphill, over a punch bowl, onto a green placed on the further side of the hill, at the top of the bowl, a runaway approach, as it were, making an exceptionally tricky hole to play, and a good three.
      July 1917 - American Golfer: “Pits will be placed on the 9th…”

10th Hole 339 yards par-4
      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The tenth is of a drive and pitch order.”




      December 1912 – American Golfer: “In developing the 10th hole at Shawnee, Mr. A.W. Tillinghast, the architect of the course, has worked out a teeing ground which is very unique. It is built into the side of a ridge and extends diagonally across the line of play. Owing to the length -90 feet- the tee-plates can be shifted with reference to the wind in such a manner as to make the carry of the “Alps” as difficult or as easy as may be desired. It will be observed from the sketch that the moving of the plates not only changes the distance but the direction as well. The distances marked from B-B roughly indicate the carries of various sections of the “Alps.” Obviously the shot from A-A would be easier and from C-C, more difficult. The way around the “Alps” is quite open but a sliced ball renders a second shot to the green a particularly trying one. The hole measures 339 yards and owing to the throw of the ground the green should be approached dead-on or slightly from the left. A straight carry of the “Alps” is the keystone of success. The teeing ground has been shaped to naturally conform with the slopes on every side and the severe lines of a terrace have been carefully avoided.

11th Hole 440 yards par-4
      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The eleventh requires two raking wood shots to reach home. There are hazards to carry on the second, which reminds one a little bit of the seventeenth at Prestwick, Scotland.
      Fall of 1912 – New green.
      June 1913 - American Golfer: “The Shawnee greens are coming along beautifully, notably the new ones on numbers… 11… which were remade last fall”

12th Hole 326 yards par-4
      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The twelfth, next to the first, is the nicest drive and pitch on the course. A deep trap, with a large mound on either side, guards the green. A rare test of golf is required to play this hole.”

13th Hole 126 yards par-3
      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The thirteenth is the ‘Binniekill’ hole, over the river onto a nice putting green, 126 yards away. The easiest kind of pitch, but men forget their accuracy with mashy and mid-iron and plunk the end of golf balls into the alluring river instead of onto a nice, inviting, undulating green. It’s as easy as the famous fifth at Lahinch, Ireland, and just as hard, if not properly manipulated. The tee shot to the fourteenth is back of the thirteenth putting green. This is done in order to make of this a nice two-shotter. When players tee off at the thirteenth, they are immediately conveyed across the river by the cable ferry, and by the time the ferry returns for other players, those playing the fourteenth are home on the green as soon as those on the thirteenth. There is never any congestion, and this is one of the finest novelties in golf.”

14th Hole 421 yards par-4

      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The fourteenth is, in reality, a two cleek-shot hole: a long shot from the tee is often punished.”


      June 1917 – American Golfer: Mr. A.W. Tillinghast is preparing models for the development of the… fourteenth holes at Shawnee. Until now these holes have remained almost precisely as they were when he laid them out in 1910…”
      July 1917 – American Golfer: The development of the long 14th at Shawnee is to be pushed at once… These improvements possibly can be completed… early in July.” 

15th Hole 197 yards par-3

      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The fifteenth is a nice drive of 200 yards. The green is surrounded by rather shallow traps, which are now a compromise. ‘Tilly’ will get busy this fall and stiffen up many of the holes.”
      October 1915 - American Golfer: “… reduced Mr. Dyer’s lead, when he won the 15th hole in par figures…” [15th hole is now a par 4]

16th Hole 246 yards par-4

      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “I have never yet seen a better placed hole than the sixteenth. A long driver has a good chance of reaching home from the tee. The short tee shot must be placed short of the bridge and creek. A deep hollow lies at the base of the putting green, where the lies are fair. The green is well trapped. The mediocre driver plays over the ditch to the left of the bridge and road; he has then a pitch left to play. The long shotter, if accurate, will win here every time. This is one of the best holes in this country. You will say so if it is ever your pleasure to play it.”

17th Hole 375 yards par-4

      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The seventeenth is a drive and iron. A topped shot meets an awful fate in heavy, rough land, and a deep, winding, running creek.”

18th Hole 391 yards par-4

      July 9, 1912 – Philadelphia Inquirer: “The eighteenth is a two-shot hole placed ever so nicely near the hotel entrance. The hole is very well guarded by endless traps.”



Phil_the_Author

Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2009, 12:20:44 AM »
Some early images...

Opening day announcement:


This sketch has been mistakenly identified as a sketch of the original layout... it isn't. It was made by at least 1914. This cane be clearly seen by the location of the 2nd tee (on opposite side of the Binniekill) from original and other changes...


Sketch of the original 10th hole. Notice the very large "Alps" feature. This would be an early use of a "Great Hazard":

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2009, 12:24:23 AM »
Tilly's use of native grasses in fairway bunkers:


Let's seeTom & his guys bring THAT back!  ;D

Tilly actually built TWO par-three's over the Binniekill! This is the 13th and the shorter of the two which was named "The Binniekill Hole."


The other par-3 over the Binniekill. # 16, the "River Hole."

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2009, 12:26:43 AM »
Tom will especially enjoy these two photos.

The first is Harry Vardon teeing off on the 15th in 1913:


The 15th green in 1914. Note the rather "small" mound! It would remain thus through the 1930's...

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2009, 12:27:02 AM »

Cliff:

It will not be my course, it'll be Tillinghast's, or I've failed to do what I'm supposed to.

This could be interesting.   Notice there is a person in each photo, so you can get an idea of the scale.  Same hole as the diagram Phil provided above.



Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2009, 12:35:52 AM »
David,

You beat me to that image! Good job...  ;D

This is the sketch for the design of the 15th green. I scanned it out of one of the only 4 known existing copies of Tilly's booklet "Planning A Golf Course." You'll fined the notes quite interesting. For his first design, the details and the thought processes that went into them certainly give hint to the great works to come in future years...


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2009, 12:45:16 AM »
Phillip, when I saw the title of this thread those photos were the first thing I thought of.   The are eye catching, to say the least. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2009, 12:56:16 AM »
Phil:  Well you have found a couple of features there that I doubt we will be allowed to restore ... but you are welcome to petition Mr. Kirkwood for them.

The two photos you have of the par-3's sure look like the same hole to me ... the silhouette of the hills in the background is identical, and there is no way you could get that anywhere else on the island.  So, I think what's now the 16th was originally the 13th based on the early write-up.  But, I have no idea how the routing went from there.

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2009, 06:47:20 AM »
Darn it Tom... You take all the fun out of this! Yes, it is the same hole. I wanted to see if anyone was going to ask because it was given two different names. Another hint that they were of the same hole taken years apart is the mode of transportation across the water... from barge to bridge...

I was wondering if anyone knew why it came to be known as the "Binniekill" hole and when rather than the "River" hole. The answer lay in a man's nickname, a very determined woman and a very large number...

The change occurred during the re-routing and lengthening of the course in 1911-13. Originally the 15th hole was a par-3 as well. After the re-routing and course lengthenings the par-3 15th became the 16th hole...
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 07:05:24 AM by Philip Young »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2009, 07:02:29 AM »
Wouldn't the architectural high point of Shawnee have been the 1920s, as seen in the aerial of Shackelford's book?

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2009, 07:24:50 AM »
Tom Mac,

The course was changed very little through the 1920's & 30's. These were mostly feature changes and not many at that.

The American Annual Golf Guide kept printing incorrect yardages for it through the years. For example, in 1916 (its first year in print) it gave the yardage at 6,471, yet we know that was 6,500. In 1917 it was 6,476. 1920 it was 6,399. 1923 it was 6,359. 1929 & 31 it was finally correctly listed at 6,500 yards. 

It appears that the reason for this had to do with how the course had been set-up for the Open championship the prior year. For example, after the 1913 Shawnee Open the course was lengthened to "over 6,500 yards" yet it was listed in the newspaper as playing to about 6,300 yards for the 1914 tournament. It is interesting that the course was often set up to NOT play from its very tips for most of the first few years.

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Poconos- Shawnee(to be restored by Doak), Tamiment and Great Bear
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2010, 02:29:46 PM »
The "debate" over pre-depression golf courses got me thinking about Shawnee.  I played it about 15 years ago and for a number of the reasons above, there isn't much left of Tillinghast.  The par three 16th sticks out in my mind as the most memorable hole. 

For those of you who are familiar with Tillinghast's work, where would the "unaltered" course rank among his work?  My recollection is that the land in the middle of the river is fairly flat, although it looks like he decided to add character (given the pictures of the Alps being built that David posted).  I haven't played all that much of AWT's work, but it seems that the course (unaltered) might have difficulty competing given how many times he shows up on GW's Top 100 classic. 

One other question, how would his first effort compare against other architects' first effort?  Say MacKenzie, Ross, CBMacdonald?  Similar to Ross and Pinehurst, AWT tinkered with the layout over time.  I don't have all of my books at hand, so I can't confirm that these are folks' absolute first efforts, but I do find it interesting that Pinehurst (Ross's first layout?) and NGLA (McDonald's first 18, maybe?) remain potentially the best example of their work.  Alwoodley in the UK, IMO, compares extremely well to other MacKenzie work.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back