[Anthony Gray]

  Par is par period.The challenge is to go for the green in two boldly and not lay up for a sure 5.Par does make this hole play differently than any other hole I can think off.

  Yes/No?

  Anthony

[Adrian_Stiff]

Anthony - I am not sure there is an answer but if there is it may be no because the road hole was originally a par 5.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Anthony

Perhaps the question should be  "Should there be Road Hole templates in the first place", do you not minimise the effect of the original, if golfers have played other templates prior to visiting the original. Plus what about designers license in preparing the templates?

Just a thought.

Melvyn

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm under the impression that, in the good new USA, you can't copyright a golf hole design.  I would guess that you can be held accountable for using the other course(s) in your marketing campaigns.

The Road Hole has wonderful strategy and could never be truly duplicated by anyone other than a scam artist.  I don't think that any of the template holes have been measure precisely to scale; they are all varied progeny of the original creator.

My first thought was, Anthony doesn't know that the RH was/is/will be a par five, but Adrian took care of that issue.  I've seen some wonderful Redan entrances/surroundings to par four putting regions, leading me to believe that elements can be shared successfully no matter the length of the hole.

[Phil McDade]

Both the Road holes at NGLA and Blue Mound are par 5s, albiet short par 5s by today's standards.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Not sure if this makes sense but as long as it makes you think about 6 or higher it doesn’t really matter if you call it a par 4 or 5?

So as long as the features/hazards used replicate the danger of those on the 17th are present, you are forced to take on us much as you think you can without going into the big numbers.

[Doug Siebert]

Part of the reason the real Road Hole is so good is because it is a bit dicey to play it as a par 4.  So even if it had been a par 4 since time immemorial I don't see a big problem with doing templates as a par 5.  On the other hand, the real Road Hole is supposed to be maddening, and being able to play it like a pussy and walk away with a par sort of defeats that

[Ed Oden]

Not exactly the same question, but you might (or might not) find some of the discussion in this thread interesting:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43292.0/

[Jud_T]

The important thing is that it be a half- par hole IMHO.  How about a 250 yard par 3 Road hole?

[Ronald Montesano]

Wouldn't that be a long Redan?

[Jud_T]

Yes I guess, but with a brutal bunker and a road and no easy way to feed the ball to the hole.

[Phil McDade]

Road Hole and Redan green complexes are not the same.

[Adam Clayman]

Then there's breaking down the elements of the RH. Template green, tee shot, irredescent green with lush rough left.

[Anthony Gray]

  What makes the road hole is challanging the green on the 2nd shot.If it is reduced to a lay up par 5 then it takes away from the greatness of the hole.

  Anthony

[Ronald Montesano]

Phil,

Are you speaking of the surrounding environs of the green unit?  How would you describe their differences?

Anthony, are you sure?  Perhaps it takes away from the front right pin position, but the center and back left ones are still quite challenging.  And why is par even a part of the discussion here?  It's all about the fewest strokes...your 3 beats my 4, regardless of what you call the hole's par.

[Anthony Gray]

Phil,

Are you speaking of the surrounding environs of the green unit?  How would you describe their differences?

Anthony, are you sure?  Perhaps it takes away from the front right pin position, but the center and back left ones are still quite challenging.  And why is par even a part of the discussion here?  It's all about the fewest strokes...your 3 beats my 4, regardless of what you call the hole's par.

 If it is a par 4 I'm going for the green...a par 5 I'm laying up.Different strategy due to par.

  Anthony

[Ronald Montesano]

Interesting...for me, it's all about the risk-reward...If I can hit the shot, I'm taking it.  If I cannot, I'm laying up.  What if you had a major cross hazard in front of the green on a 480 yard hole...would par factor in?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Phil,

Are you speaking of the surrounding environs of the green unit?  How would you describe their differences?

Anthony, are you sure?  Perhaps it takes away from the front right pin position, but the center and back left ones are still quite challenging.  And why is par even a part of the discussion here?  It's all about the fewest strokes...your 3 beats my 4, regardless of what you call the hole's par.

 If it is a par 4 I'm going for the green...a par 5 I'm laying up.Different strategy due to par.

  Anthony

Anthony- That does not make sense; If it is a 495 yard par 4 you go for it, if its 485 par 5 you lay up? I can see the logic in..'if its 220 yards or more I am laying up, if its 219 im going for it'. Par should/must not muddle your mind set.

[Phil McDade]

Phil,

Are you speaking of the surrounding environs of the green unit?  How would you describe their differences?

The greenside bunker of a Road Hole, at least the one at TOC and those at Blue Mound, Shoreacres, and NGLA, is usually a pot bunker, small but deep, often gathering in nature. The Redan bunker, long and narrow, runs at an angle, parallel to the angle of the green. A Redan green is severely tilted, noticeable from the tee, away from the player. Both have open right sides, but the Redan has a "ramp" of sorts in which the player can use to move their ball toward the green. Road Holes may or may not have this feature; Blue Mound's does not.

[Anthony Gray]

Phil,

Are you speaking of the surrounding environs of the green unit?  How would you describe their differences?

Anthony, are you sure?  Perhaps it takes away from the front right pin position, but the center and back left ones are still quite challenging.  And why is par even a part of the discussion here?  It's all about the fewest strokes...your 3 beats my 4, regardless of what you call the hole's par.

 If it is a par 4 I'm going for the green...a par 5 I'm laying up.Different strategy due to par.

  Anthony

Anthony- That does not make sense; If it is a 495 yard par 4 you go for it, if its 485 par 5 you lay up? I can see the logic in..'if its 220 yards or more I am laying up, if its 219 im going for it'. Par should/must not muddle your mind set.

  We don't think alike.If score matters than score is always related to par unless in match play.

  Anthony

[Adrian_Stiff]

Phil,

Are you speaking of the surrounding environs of the green unit?  How would you describe their differences?

Anthony, are you sure?  Perhaps it takes away from the front right pin position, but the center and back left ones are still quite challenging.  And why is par even a part of the discussion here?  It's all about the fewest strokes...your 3 beats my 4, regardless of what you call the hole's par.

 If it is a par 4 I'm going for the green...a par 5 I'm laying up.Different strategy due to par.

  Anthony

Anthony- That does not make sense; If it is a 495 yard par 4 you go for it, if its 485 par 5 you lay up? I can see the logic in..'if its 220 yards or more I am laying up, if its 219 im going for it'. Par should/must not muddle your mind set.

  We don't think alike.If score matters than score is always related to par unless in match play.

  Anthony

I dont even understand your response. Whats your handicap?

[V. Kmetz]

Every hole is measured by a "par" of 4 for me....700 yards...50 yards... whatever.

That's the score i'm trying to set up as I hit the tee shot.  Of course I can barely reach something 480 in two shots, but that's mine and my fellow competitors problem - not the hole, the course or the architect.

When I see a yardage over 6500, no matter how it's broken down - I know my <80 yard game and green side play are going to be heavily in play.

I do my level best to keep everything to 5, sometimes at the expense of whatever the card par may be.

what would really be the difference if the Road Hole is a par 2 or a par 6...lots of triples or lots of birdies and a decent chance for eagle?

Par is the enemy of golf enjoyment - to say nothing of it's distortions for match play, the soul of golf.

cheers

vk

[RSLivingston_III]

Phil,

Are you speaking of the surrounding environs of the green unit?  How would you describe their differences?

Anthony, are you sure?  Perhaps it takes away from the front right pin position, but the center and back left ones are still quite challenging.  And why is par even a part of the discussion here?  It's all about the fewest strokes...your 3 beats my 4, regardless of what you call the hole's par.

 If it is a par 4 I'm going for the green...a par 5 I'm laying up.Different strategy due to par.

  Anthony

Anthony- That does not make sense; If it is a 495 yard par 4 you go for it, if its 485 par 5 you lay up? I can see the logic in..'if its 220 yards or more I am laying up, if its 219 im going for it'. Par should/must not muddle your mind set.

Does being honest with yourself and asking the question of if you have the skill to pull off the more difficult shot, a consideration?
Or does that make you a wimp?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,

Don't you think that par is largely dependent upon the yardage of the hole ?

Do you know many 500 yard holes that play as par 4's for the membership ?

[Mark_F]

Don't you think that par is largely dependent upon the yardage of the hole ?

Do you know many 500 yard holes that play as par 4's for the membership ?

13th at St Andrews Beach - although they do not have members anymore. 

The green, nor the bunkers thirty yards short of it, didn't ask the question of whether to lay up or not - it was whether you put your drive in the fairway at a distance that then enabled one to go for it.  Even from the forward tee thirty yards ahead, it was still difficult to hit a good enough drive, unless the hole was playing downwind or still.

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