[Will E]

I can say without hesitation that Kelly Moran's course "The Hideout" is outstanding. It plays hard and fast, an easy walk and with no houses or road noise, it is a real Old Florida treat. Throw in the fact that there will never be tennis courts, tee times, or a pool on property and it gets even better. A fantastic effort in an area starved for a good course. I don't think the membership wants anyone to know about it, I cant blame um.

[Mark_Fine]

Haven't played The Hideout but I've played several others including Naples National.  Have you seen this one?

[Craig_Rokke]

Kelly Moran relocated to the Reading PA area in the last couple years. I believe he may have one ongoing project in the region, but I'm not sure. Can anyone characterize
his style or comment further on his courses?

[John_Conley]

Haven't seen the Hideout, but I am very partial toward Bay Island, one of the 5 very good courses at the Bonita Bay Club.

Naples National doesn't fit my tastes for a golf course, but it is a real nice club with a class act for a head pro.

[Mike_Cirba]

Shooter,

Thanks for the heads up.

I've played one Kelly Blake Moran course last year (Hawk Pointe in north central NJ), and was VERY favorably impressed.  At the time, I wrote an extensive article on it here (hopefully it will be available again someday), but every single hole featured strategic options and the wildly undulating greens could only be described as incredibly ballsy for an unknown architect.  For instance, one short par four had a green very similar to 16 at North Berwick, while another on a par five rose up quickly for the first quarter, and then swept away front to back rather steeply for the remainder.  

His website is as follows;

www.kellyblakemoran.com

More of the Hideout can be seen at this link;

http://www.kellyblakemoran.com/hideout.html

But, to answer Craig's question, Moran is building a course near Reading, PA, that I believe might open this year.  If you click on the "Course Master Plan" link, it blows up full size, and it gives a pretty good glimpse of the type of strategies that he seems to employ;

http://www.kellyblakemoran.com/oldwhales.html

I am excited to see if it comes out as good on the ground as it looks on paper!  

[john_f (Guest)]

Hideout looks pretty good. Where in the Naples area is it? Overall I'm amazed at the number of Golf Courses in the area, but what has in the past appeared to be extremely medicore ones. Many if not most are Very private w/ no chance to get inside and the public one's I have seen are very weak. It's amazing for a place of so many courses, the landscape is appears to be so poor for quality.

The few I've heard good things about are Olde Florida (Rees), Naples National (Hurdzan) & Tiburon (Norman). Two ultra-exclusives and a very high end public. I'm wondering about the comments on the new Fazio courses at Bonita Bay and the Nicklaus's Twin Eagles (next door to each other I think?) along w/ the PB/Pete Dye course (forget the name??) and another new course near the Bonita Springs line off US41 which may be a Fazio also.

[SPDB]

I like the look of that Old Wales.
Look at all those routes to the hole!!!
I wonder if the success of Kinloch, with all of its myriad strategic options will spawn courses that embrace that design technique.

[Mike_Cirba]

SPDB,

Width seems to be a BIG thing in Moran's designs, even prior to Kinloch.  Hawk Pointe is built on a relatively non-eventful piece of property, but instead of trying to create eye-catching histrionics with lots of earth moving, he let's the bunkering, angles, and green complexes dictate the day's play.

There is not a single mound on the property that I saw.

Other neat features include shared fairways, diagonal bunkering complexes, and once again, the greens are nothing if not daring.

The course routing and some photos of Hawk Pointe are below;

http://www.kellyblakemoran.com/hawkpointe.html

You know, the more I look at his work, the more I find to like.  

Speaking of width, I think we also owe Mr. Strantz (and the other usual suspects) a tip of the cap for helping bring it back to modern design.

[SPDB]

Mike -
His fairway bunkering to me seems reminiscent of CB MacD./SR. That 7th hole at hawk point (at least from the master plan) seems to employ the same sort of fairway bunkering strategy that I have seen on raynor/macd courses, 6 & 18 at piping rock are coming immediately to mind.

i'll concede, however, that some of his fairway bunkering seems to be a bit too linear for my tastes.

i would be very interested in seeing one of his courses. Where is Washington, NJ?

[Mike_Cirba]

SPDB,

Yes, your observations are very good, and mine as well.  My only complaint with Hawk Pointe is that it was almost TOO strategic.  I would have liked to have seen a little more randomness, as well as some better shaping to the VERY large fairway bunkers.  Still, minor complaints, but I'd love to see what some really, really good shapers could do with his design philosophy.

Washington, NJ is not too far from Allentown/Bethlehem/Easton PA, not far from The Architects Club.  It's about 3/4 of the way north in the state, along the far western border near PA.

I'll also let others know when his course in PA opens, hopefully this year.

[John_Conley]

The few I've heard good things about are Olde Florida (Rees), Naples National (Hurdzan) & Tiburon (Norman). Two ultra-exclusives and a very high end public. I'm wondering about the comments on the new Fazio courses at Bonita Bay and the Nicklaus's Twin Eagles (next door to each other I think?)

The Marsh, Creekside, and Bay Island courses at Bonita Bay are very similar - great swamp courses designed by Art Hills.  As it appears you know, the Cypress and Sabal (I love courses named after professional wrestlers!) are not attached.  About a 20-30 minute drive.  These two Fazio courses epitomize BIG golf.  Everything is BIG, and they are a lot of fun to play.  Sabal seems shorter because it has 5 par 5s, but other than that they are similar.  If I were a member of BB, I wouldn't care which course they sent me to.  I love them all.  As long as they mixed it up I wouldn't tire of any.

You are right about Twin Eagles.  One hole brushes up against Sabal's backside (easy boy!).  I have not played it.  The green I saw is half the size of a small Sabal or Creekside green, so I think the character is a lot different.  Nicklaus gets that design credit.

I am not as fond of Tiburon.  The site isn't very good.  Ditto Naples National, but that at least is an amazing club.  Have not played Olde Florida, but I too have heard good things.

The area stands out for the high cost of golf compared to other parts of Florida.

[Will E]

Bonita Bay used to have a neat course in the original Marsh course (NLE). In fact it was the only course I've seen by Art Hills that I could actually say that I've liked. I'm afraid that Bonita Bay was forced to expand the Marsh because its members couldn't get tee times. The new routing with the added holes requires a road map. What they have now is a real shame, typical boring Art Hills work that doesn't appeal to me. Bonita Bay's new courses up the road at Shadow Wood by Bob Cupp are way better than the Hills courses. The two Fazio courses at BB East are not ones I could recommend, both look like they were mailed in.
Bonita Bay Group's Mediterra is a very high end development where it looks like Fazio spent some more time. I played Mediterra last year and thought it was better than most of Faz's work, the green complexes here have a Pinehurst feel to them. I understand that they are adding another course here too.
I do like Twin Eagles, I didn't think I would. Twin Eagles is one of Nicklaus better efforts and the plans for the second 18 there look promising. Twin Eagles is a Bonita Bay property now too.
I played Miromar Lakes today, another Art Hills course that could easily be confused with a number of his other works (think Quail West only wider and longer 7,400yds.) It is a real bore, I scored well and still have trouble recalling the holes only a couple hours after finishing. I haven't a clue as to how this guy gets all of the work he does. What am I missing?
Darwin Sharpe's Grandezza is worth a look. The slope is around 150 and the rating is about 76. I'm checking out Hole-in-the-Wall (Dick Wilson) later this week and will let you know.
I'll still say that the Hideout is the best in this area by far. Number two is probaby Pete and P.B. Dyes course, West Bay.

[John_Conley]

That's Shooter when playing the Marsh or Bay Island!

Seriously, it is nowhere near as bad as you describe.  The course formerly known as Marsh (once a Golf Digest Top 100) is now 1-6 and 16-18 of the current Marsh (the old front) and 1-3 and 13-18 of the current Bay Island.

Instead of returning 9s, you now have continuous loops.  Many of the new holes - which obviously are the 9+9 that fill the voids in the courses above - are good, particularly #9 on Bay Island.  A lot will be lost if they clear out the stuff on the right.

For a member of BB, the sequence was Old Marsh, Creekside, additional holes to change Old Marsh to New Marsh and Bay Island, Cypress, then Sabal - the last two "off site".  The other Bonita Bay Development courses Shoot mentions are not part of the same membership structure.  I have not seen them, but would like to.

As he mentions, the need to add courses stems from an OUTRAGEOUSLY successful development.  The place is teeming with affluent golfers.

[Will E]

John,
You're probably right the Bonita Bay courses aren't as bad I indicated, THEY'RE WORSE. I will say that the BB development is super, the landscaping, gulf access, etc., it really is a nice community. Just don't go there for the golf. Bonita Bay would be a great place to live, if you could play your golf at the Hideout.

Next door (North) at Pelican's Landing an even greater travesty has occured for the same reasons of needing more holes. The original Pelican's Nest was fantastic, way better than Hill's Old Marsh.

[Paul Richards]

One most haven't heard of that is pretty good is
Naples Grande.

[Will E]

Paul,
Naples Grande is "pretty good", but no way is it any better than a 5. Rees Jones has thrown in a couple of very good holes on this track and I would prefer a round at "the grande" vs. his other courses in the area, Olde Florida or Golf Club of the Everglades.
For an old sporty course the Naples Beach club is a kick, and the hotel is great. Also old, sporty, and worth a look is Ft.Myers CC (Donald Ross).
Gateway next to RSW is one of Fazio's best.

[Solario]

Every year for spring break my friends and I go to Ft. Myers.  The best courses we have played are Tiburon and the Bonita Bay Courses.  Im going to have to disagree with Shooter about Gateway.  In my opinion that is the worst Fazio course I have ever played.  Fazio cannot create "links style" courses. Two bargains in the area are Stoneybrook, located in Estero, and Cypress Woods, located in Naples.  Cypress Woods is only 6300 from the back tees, but trust me it's all most people can handle. It has a slope of 136, and some narrow, but well designed holes.

[Paul Richards]

Naples National, Olde Florida, Naples Grande and Bonita Bay (Bay Island) are all pretty good.

I still do not understand why you would rip apart course that
had been ranked #60 by Golf Digest in 1989 (the original
Marsh course there).  Can someone tell us why this ever
happened?

Tiburron is over-rated.  It's a strange course , or maybe just poorly designed as it is jammed in in places, yet has lots of unused room near the preserve.

Quail West (the Lakes) is a fun but average course.

Pelican's Nest (Seminole/Panther) - one of the worst messes
passing itself off as a golf course.    Typical
Florida golf; find some dead flat land, dig a hole for water,
and use the soil to build up tees and greens.  It cannot be
walked - it must be a mile from the 3rd green to the 4th tee.

[David Wigler]

Paul,

Well said on Tiburon.  I was extremely disappointed.  What a phenominal facility though.  This is the epitome of a world class facility with a second rate golf course.  Norman seems to be making a career of these.

[BillV]

As I posted on another thread, Hawk Pointe is very near the intersection of NJ 31 and NJ 57.  Easy access from Architects E on 57, then just S on 31,  or I-78 N on 31.
A good 36-er for anyone in or visiting the Northeast.

[Will E]

Paul,
Here's my guess as to why Bonita Bay killed the only Art Hills$ course that I've seen to be worthy of mention on this site. $$

Bonita Bay enjoyed tremendous growth (I think it still is). The golf course (Marsh) couldn't handle the new membership numbers. Some families were spending over $5 mil on a home they planned on using only a couple of weeks a year, and found that they couldn't even get a tee time on their new home course. It got real, real ugly (computer tee-times, etc.).  BB reacted by adding holes where ever they could (Creekside, Bay Island, Marsh), and they even bought property about 30 min. east on what I would venture was much less expensive property. The quality of golf at this facility went from a good 6 to a weak 5, I wonder if they issued refunds. Anyone who joins BB now for the golf needs to see our Doc. They would be much better off at some of BB's other properties (Mediterra, Twin Eagles or Shadow Wood).

Solario,
The only way Gateway could be the worst Fazio course you've ever played is if the only other Faz designs you've played are Black Diamond, WW or Lake Nona. Seriously, I'd be glad to show you around Gateway. It does lose some value as being the site of Gary McCord's first win on tour (Ben Hogan event).  You'll  be pleased that Cypress Wood is offering a special rate of $30 with cart. I haven't seen it. I have played Stoneybrook with some of the FGCSU team and find it long, boring and in poor condition.

Paul, you are right about Tiburon.

My intent on this post wasn't to bash BB or any of the other courses in this area. It is amazing to me how many courses are going up here. I've just been very upset with the overall quality of the designs here in SW FL and was very excited when I got back from playing Kelly Moran's Hideout. The Hideout isn't going to make my short list of great courses, but it is so much better than anything I've seen down here I thought you all might want to know about it. I have seen just about all there is to see here and would be happy to share my thoughts.

[Solario]

Shooter-

I never knew about the Ben Hogan event at Gateway.  I just felt the course was pretty boring.  I have never played any of the Fazio courses you have mentioned earlier.  Maybe Gateway was a little disapointing after playing courses such as Hallbrook, World Woods, and Victoria National.  Gateway is better than a lot of the courses in the area, but I don't feel it is as good as it could of been.  Thanks for the current rate on Cypress Woods  , I will be sure to check it out when I come back down in April.  I do agree with you that the overall quality of design of courses in SW Florida is weak.  I'd rather go to the Orlando area to play golf than Naples or Ft. Myers.

Is The Hideout private? Is it very hard to get on? Happy Holidays.

[Ed_Baker]

I would have to agree with Shooters assessments.

I "wintered" in Naples from 1983 through 1997 belonging only to Wildcat Run starting in 1986 (I think,it was '86 only a golf course and a trailer for a pro shop at the time). Anyway, for a LONG time it was the ONLY thing in Estero going right off of exit 19 (Corkscrew RD.) coming up from Naples toward the airport. As a matter of fact my buddies and I all lived on Gulfshore Blvd. "downtown" Naples and we used to drag race the" rent a Lincolns" from the I75 exit to the club entrance and we never encountered another car coming the other way at seven -thirty in the morning for about six years! We could make the run from Naples to the locker room in about twenty-five minutes. The last year I was there as a member was '97 and it was taking almost an hour with the traffic. I left.

Wildcat had a wonderful "reciprocity" program with the area clubs so I got to play most of the new ones as they were being built (especially Nov. and May). By about 1993 I stopped playing the new ones because they were all so mediocre and the "same". Like most everywhere, the "older" courses were seperating themselves from the pack. I found myself only enjoying The Beach Club, Hole in the Wall, the first course at Imperial, original Pelicans Nest,original Bonita Bay Marsh, Golden Gate( before it really deteriorated) and Marco Island CC even Wyndemere on Golden Gate pkwy. wasn't bad and Flamingo(Pelican). After that soooo many were built as "condo canyons" ala Foxfire,Royal Woods, Worthington,Vineyards,Audobon and on and on.

It really is a shame that the Naples,Bonita, Ft. Meyers area has so few really good courses and scores and scores of mediocre to downright awful ones. The traffic has also become abysmal.

The building of SWR has killed it, Naples,Marco,Sannibel, Captiva was much more enjoyable when you used to have to fly in to Clearwater and drive three hours or so!

In my opinion.

[Paul Richards]

Ed:

Unfortunately, overall, I have to agree with you and
Shooter.

Naples, overall, is a disappointing area for golf.  Orlando,
Tampa, West Palm, Miami, etc. etc. all are better areas from
top to bottom.

[John_Conley]

You're giving Miami way too much credit.  Ditto Tampa.

To see nearly all of our best courses without driving around much, just park it near Jupiter for a week (Seminole, Jupiter Hills, and many upscale private clubs) and take another week and park near Beverly Hills.  From there you can catch the Dunes, World Woods, Black Diamond Ranch, El Diablo, Golden Ocala, and the CC of Ocala.

You wouldn't miss more than a couple "must sees" out of the 1000+ courses in Florida.

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