News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« on: August 15, 2010, 11:06:27 PM »
This week's focus on Whistling Straits brings up a topic that I have wondered about for a while - Why aren't there that many top quality golf courses directly on the Great Lakes? 

So many of the early courses in GB&I were along the sea, wouldn't it have been natural to build courses along very large bodies of water in North America?

During the Golden Era from 1918-1929 the American cities along the Great Lakes, such as Rochester, Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee, etc were at their zeniths.  But how many of these cities have their best courses along the lake?

The province of Ontario has pretty much all of its southern border with the US framed by the Great Lakes from Kingston in the east to Thunder Bay in the west with what has to be well over a thousand miles of coastline.

I live in Toronto which is right on Lake Ontario - we only have one course that I can think of which borders directly on the lake and that is Toronto Hunt which is a nine hole course which I believe was designed by Willie Park Jr.  But many other top quality course, such as Toronto Golf Club and Scarboro are only a mile or two from the lake.  And other excellent course in other parts of Ontario, such as St. Thomas (Union) are very near the lakes and could have been built on bluffs overlooking Lake Erie.  There are also parts of the lakeshores in Ontario that have fabulous sand dunes, such as Sandbanks Provincial Park and the Lake Huron coastline near Southampton.

So why would the courses not be built right on the lake?  Was the land too flat and uninteresting (I don't think this is the case).  Were there worries about erosion that could cause parts of the course to fall away.  Were the other things that I am not considering?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2010, 11:23:15 PM »
Wayne:

In some instances, I suspect it's because the real estate was too valuable to be devoted to golf, precisely because all of those cities were booming in the 1920's.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2010, 11:34:30 PM »
With respect to Chicago, at some point the lake front was designated as parkland accessible to all city residents.   Building a private course on the lake in the city was not in the cards.  That being said, there are two city run courses on (or very near the lake). 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2010, 11:56:38 PM »
Wayne:

In some instances, I suspect it's because the real estate was too valuable to be devoted to golf, precisely because all of those cities were booming in the 1920's.
That is true within the cities but not necessarily in the suburbs.  My club, Scarboro, is built along a river ravine which is typical of many clubs in Toronto.  But there are bluffs overlooking the lake 1.5 miles to the south that were farmland when the course was built in 1912.  I am pretty sure that it is a similar case with Toronto Golf Club when it was built in 1910 or so - the lakefront a mile or so to the south would have been undeveloped as it was quite a distance away from the core of the city.  Why not use this land?

@Sven - what about the towns around Chicago?  And I thought that rules like those in Chicago only matter if you don't pay off the right people ;D

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2010, 12:06:36 AM »
Wayne:

It could also be that the property along the lakefront was already divided into too many parcels.  It's very hard to develop a golf course if you have to buy a lot of different parcels to get the acreage together.  After a few purchases, the other landholders get an idea that something's up, and the price of what you don't own yet multiplies dramatically.

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2010, 12:21:07 AM »
I guess I am surprised nobody had thought of the idea sooner.

I grew up there and always used to imagine Lake Michigan as being "the ocean" since I could never see the other side.

When the Wisconsin state high school tournament was held at Fox Hills (an awful faux-links creation in nearby Mishicot), it did cross my mind once or twice that maybe someone should try to build a course on the water like that (well, like WS and not like Fox Hills).
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2010, 08:40:02 AM »
Tom Doak is probably closest.  When a settlers farm was divided up upon death, every son (not always daughters) needed to get part of the waterfront property to make the farm valuble and it got cut up into narrower and narrower parcels.  Even by 1900, some of these family farms had been divided by the descendants of original settlers from 1835 or so on.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dean DiBerardino

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2010, 08:49:27 AM »
My guess, and this is from my experiences here in Cleveland, is that the land along the edges of the lake, aside from the wonderful views, was much less desirable for use as a golf course.  Take Whistling Straits for example.  It seems that the most interesting piece of that property is near the 9th and 18th holes where the Seven Mile Creek runs through.  Other than that, I believe that most of the property for the Straits and Irish courses was man-made.  My old boss lived near there when he was a kid and he told me that most of the property there was fairly flat and not very interesting.  I’m guessing that they used the fill from the pond that was built on the back nine of the Irish course to build those enormous mounds which have to be seen to be believed.

As for here in Cleveland, the land along the lakefront is not nearly as geologically blessed for golf courses as the much of the land a few miles inland.   Aside from the views, we are not as fortunate to have features along our water like the amazing sand dunes that were found at Friar’s Head.  What we do have for golf courses is located in the creek valleys of the Cuyahoga and the Chagrin and their many tributaries, and it is good.

One of the few interesting pieces of land here in Cleveland along the lakefront would be downtown where the Cuyahoga River spills in to Lake Erie.  There is no way that any golf course could have been built there some one hundred years ago because the primary use of the river and the land nearby was for industry back then.  It was used to transport the raw materials in to the nearby steel mills and the finished product out that helped build our country.  Thankfully it is no longer burning because of it.

I guess what I am trying to say is that, aside from real estate, one could consider big industry, trade, and more interesting land a few miles inland as causes for the lack of golf courses that were built on the shores of the Great Lakes.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2010, 08:50:55 AM »
In the case of Lake Erie's shore in PA and NY, you have the issue of erosion and weather.  Lake Erie is only 200-300' deep, so the water tends to "slosh" to the west during a storm.  Plus, you have copious amounts of snow on the western shores due to lake-effect snows.

There does exist a cute, ancient golf course called Niagara-on-the-Lake in Ontario right were the Niagara River flows into Lake Ontario.  Niagara-on-the-Lake Golf Course had the distinction of being host to the first ever-international tournament held in North America. That event - the Niagara International - was held September 5-7, 1895.  

Harris Nepon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2010, 09:25:08 AM »

I believe the land around the lakes just doesn’t provide what GB&I. I live on the other side of Lake Ontario across from Toronto. All the land around the lake here is farm land, flat boring land that would require WS type of manufacturing to make a great shoreline course.

I've never been, but from pictures of course in GB&I it seems that the land has developed over the course of time by the much more powerful ocean then the calm lakes found here.

However, when you go "inland" in Ontario you find amazing areas for Golf courses. Look at Hamilton Golf and Country Club, which has unreal elevation changes you would never think to find the middle of a major city. Thanks to the Niagara Escarpment that runs through most of Southern Ontario, we have many inland golf courses on great pieces of land.

Maybe some GCA’s of the early 1900’s when some of the best courses were built, just took a look at the land, found it boring near the lakes and difficult to build with the technology of the time. I know it sounds simple, but land is just that much more interesting away from the lakes.

Paul OConnor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2010, 09:36:52 AM »
The original North Shore Country Club was located in what is now Kenilworth, IL.  While it wasn't "on" the lake, it was pretty close.  The NSCC Members at that time had the choice to sell the existing club for big $ to real estate developers, and buy a bigger property further west in Glenview.  I'm sure a no-brainer at the time. 

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2010, 09:49:53 AM »
The original North Shore Country Club was located in what is now Kenilworth, IL.  While it wasn't "on" the lake, it was pretty close.  The NSCC Members at that time had the choice to sell the existing club for big $ to real estate developers, and buy a bigger property further west in Glenview.  I'm sure a no-brainer at the time. 

Paul,

There was also the golf course located in Gilson Park in Wilmette, next to the Michigan Shores Club. Unless we happen to be talking about the same course?
H.P.S.

Paul OConnor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2010, 10:26:38 AM »
Pat,
I'm not familiar with a Gilson Park golf course, although they did have an excellent frisbee golf course there for a number of years.  Lots of elevations change, some neat doglegs, and the wind was always a big factor.  Apparently the Wilmette Park district didn't appreciate the high moral quality of most frisbee golfers, and closed it down some years ago.
Gilson is probably a half mile or so south of where the old NSCC course was located. 

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2010, 10:38:11 AM »
However, when you go "inland" in Ontario you find amazing areas for Golf courses. Look at Hamilton Golf and Country Club, which has unreal elevation changes you would never think to find the middle of a major city. Thanks to the Niagara Escarpment that runs through most of Southern Ontario, we have many inland golf courses on great pieces of land.
In many instances the land by the lake is flat and dull, but not always.  In Scarborough there is land South of Kingston Road that overlooks the lake around Markham Road that has wonderful rolling hills that could have made a wonderful golf course.  I wonder why this land wasn't used for Scarboro Golf Club?  The typical "Golden Era" Toronto course is built along a river/creek and uses the topographical changes carved by the water - there is the added advantage that much of these courses lie in floodplains that would be unsuitable for other commercial uses - and we find out every few years with flooding that does major damage to these courses as we have seen in the last decade at Donalda, Credit Valley, Mississauga, etc.

The Niagara Excarpment is another interesting point.  How many courses make use of it?  There are the Chedoke muni courses in Hamilton (I believe the Beddoe course is a Stanley Thompson) and then there are the Devil's Pulpit/Paintbrush courses on the escarpment - how many others.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2010, 10:45:55 AM »
Wayne, great point on the escarpment. 

Remember that it goes into NY State too, and it's not really used for golf there.

Harris Nepon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses along the Great Lakes - Why so few of them?
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2010, 10:56:53 AM »
The Niagara Excarpment is another interesting point.  How many courses make use of it?  There are the Chedoke muni courses in Hamilton (I believe the Beddoe course is a Stanley Thompson) and then there are the Devil's Pulpit/Paintbrush courses on the escarpment - how many others.

Greystone (Clublink) in Milton - Doug Carrick  
Lookout Point Golf Club - Walter J. Travis

Those are 2 that I can think of that use it the best. I'm sure there are more.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back