Penal Strategies

[Emil Weber]

As much as I like wiiide fairways and the freedom to play whatever shot you like, I've come to the conclusion that the occasional penal hole might be a bit underrated here on GCA.

When you stand on the tee of a hole and see a 25 yard narrow fairway with bunkers on either side, don't you ask yourself if you really want to hit driver to gain a shorter approach, or hit a long iron for a better chance to hit te fairway?

And when you miss the fairway and end up in the deep rough and the lie is difficult to judge, isn't it tough to decide wether you want to hit that ball towards the green and might just and up in an even worse lie, or just try to hit it on the fairway and get the ball back in the game? Sort of like this...:


Or when the course is in a forest, trees on either side. Mostly its easy to just chip it back onto the fairway, but sometimes there's just a small gap in the trees between your ball and the green that tempts you to play trough it.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer the classic concept of a strategic hole, and 18 holes like this would be boring, but I think the occasional penal hole should be part of a good mix of holes... right?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Absolutely. 

[Adam Clayman]

Dont you mean an occasional narrowing?

[Emil Weber]

not necessarily Adam, but it is probably more or less the same, except if the fairway is narrow from tee to green it affects all golfers, whereas with a narowing you hav the control over which golfer you want to "test".

[Jeff_Brauer]

It could be a dramatic forced carry or shot to a small, elevated green.  If you like variety, then hitting a shot with ultra precision is a shot type and IMHO is likely to stand out. 

If you have 12 wide fw, and 2 narrow ones, golfers will remember the narrow ones.  It seems they remember beauty or difficulty, depending on their take on things.

[Matthew Runde]

I'm all for penal holes, but not for all penal holes.

[Sean_A]

Penal Strategies - gotta hav'em.  These sorts of holes keep golfers honest about their abilities and hopefully their ambitions.

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

Why is the 17th Road Hole so liked and respected - could it be because it is easy?  Or perhaps its test the skill and determination of the Golfer to grasp the nettle and take the shot be it The Road Hole Bunker, the Road or The Green. If it was easy would we bother, in my case Hell No, but then that’s what I expect from a Game called Golf

And so penal is the life blood of Golf IMHO.

Melvyn

[RSLivingston_III]

I think Penal Strategie is an oxymoron. Penal is penal, there is no stratagy.

[Emil Weber]

I think Penal Strategie is an oxymoron.

You got it.

Penal is penal, there is no stratagy.

The 3 examples I gave in the initial post would only exist on a "penal" hole, but the outcome would be strategic.

[RSLivingston_III]

How you play a recovery shot is strategic?

[Emil Weber]

You are leading the British Open at Muirfield and you have a relatively bad lie in the deep rough, 130 yds to the pin.
Now you can hit sand wedge 20 yds onto the fairway or try to hack an 8 iron towards the green with the danger of not getting it out (same thing when you are in the woods).
For me, that sounds like distinctive options you can choose from, which sounds like strategy...

[RSLivingston_III]

Sorry, my bad, I was confusing your description of a playing strategy with Strategic hole design.

[Chris Buie]

I love shots where you can take a risk to obtain an advantage but if you choose that option and don't pull it off you pay a price.
I don't like a continual series of shots where you have zero options but to hit it exactly right or you are D.O.A.
So I'd imagine we are all in favor of a disadvantage/penalty due to choosing and not pulling off a shot.  The question is how much of a penalty and having an option as opposed to not having options.  The occasional shot where there aren't many good alternatives is ok but I don't favor a boatload of them.
As Melvyn pointed out 17 at TOC is a perfect example.  You have the option of playing an aggressive shot for the middle of the green or you can play for front right.  We would not rate this hole so highly if there were not the penal element.  But neither would we if there weren't the front right option as well.

[John Moore II]

I love shots where you can take a risk to obtain an advantage but if you choose that option and don't pull it off you pay a price.
I don't like a continual series of shots where you have zero options but to hit it exactly right or you are D.O.A.
So I'd imagine we are all in favor of a disadvantage/penalty due to choosing and not pulling off a shot.  The question is how much of a penalty and having an option as opposed to not having options.  The occasional shot where there aren't many good alternatives is ok but I don't favor a boatload of them.
As Melvyn pointed out 17 at TOC is a perfect example.  You have the option of playing an aggressive shot for the middle of the green or you can play for front right.  We would not rate this hole so highly if there were not the penal element.  But neither would we if there weren't the front right option as well.

But would The Old Course be as fun to play if every hole out there were as difficult as the 17th? I've never played there, but I think perhaps not. And some might not even think it was as great a course, but thats completely hypothetical. But the occasional hole that shouts out 'hit two (or one or three) precise shots or be heavily punished' is fine.

[Doug Siebert]

My answer to the question of whether to hit driver or an iron on that type of hole is counterintuitive.  If the hole is short, say under 400 yards, I'll probably take driver, figuring that yeah I'm likely to end up in the gunk, but at least I'm playing a wedge from the gunk which makes for an easier recovery (i.e., I can play for the green or at least the vicinity of the green)

If the hole is longer, I'll play the iron, and take my chances with a long iron approach.  Well, assuming I don't screw up and put my 1 iron in the crap.  Then its probably wedge, wedge, take my bogey and get the hell out of there!

[Jason Topp]

One of the architecture books describes 11, 12 and 13 at Augusta as an example of a strategic, penal, and heroic hole in sequence.  (either Shackelford or Doak's book).  That description is now dated with the changes to 11 and the distance players hit the ball now but I do think it demonstrates that a well placed penal hole is a great changeup when used at the right time.

[Sean_A]

One of the architecture books describes 11, 12 and 13 at Augusta as an example of a strategic, penal, and heroic hole in sequence.  (either Shackelford or Doak's book).  That description is now dated with the changes to 11 and the distance players hit the ball now but I do think it demonstrates that a well placed penal hole is a great changeup when used at the right time.

Jason

Hmm, 13 heroic?  One must cross the hazard eventually so I call it penal.  I guess in the context of the masters one could say its heroic because after laying up one doesn't expect a pro to dump it.

Ciao

[Ben Voelker]

Jason

Hmm, 13 heroic?  One must cross the hazard eventually so I call it penal.  I guess in the context of the masters one could say its heroic because after laying up one doesn't expect a pro to dump it.

Ciao

13 has to be heroic right?  You don't have to try and clear the creek from 230.  The layup to 70 yards or something is obviously an option.  Of course, a heroic hole has to have the, or some of the, penal characteristics with other options for a safer play, yes?