[V. Kmetz]

...besides the ones we refer to in the CBM model?

At NGLA...

Sahara
Alps
Redan
Short
Road
Bottle
Long
Double Plateau
Eden
Cape
Punchbowl
Narrows

and others...

Biarritz
Raynor's Prize-Dog leg
Channel Hole

(please remind me if I'm missing some)

but are there other holes that can be called Template in the same sense?

Does Ross or Tillinghast or Maxwell or Thomas have a signature name or style for some of their repeated holes?

cheers

vk

[Niall C]

VK

Off the top of my head I would say the Postage Stamp. Interestingly that was (possibly) first done with the 8th at Troon in 1909 (I think) although in one of Darwins books he refers to the 13th at Muirfield as being a Postage Stamp hole but not being sure which was done first.

Certainly Silloth has a Postage Stamp, probably from Willie Fernies visit in 1912. Are there any Postage Stamps in the US or elsewhere ?

Niall

[Mac Plumart]

What about RTJ's forced water carry par 3?

Dye has two...

Island green and another one of his par 3 concepts.  I can't describe it, I'll post pics tonight.  Essentially, it is water or a bunker directly in the line of fire to the green, but fairway up the side.  Play to the green over the hazard in one shot or play two up the side. Like I said, I'll post photos tonight.

[Patrick_Mucci]

...besides the ones we refer to in the CBM model?

At NGLA...

Sahara
Alps
Redan
Short
Road
Bottle
Long
Double Plateau
Eden
Cape
Punchbowl
Narrows

and others...


Valley
Hogback
Plateau
Knoll


Biarritz
Raynor's Prize-Dog leg
Channel Hole

Reverse Redan

(please remind me if I'm missing some)

but are there other holes that can be called Template in the same sense?

Does Ross or Tillinghast or Maxwell or Thomas have a signature name or style for some of their repeated holes?

AWT did a Redan and has versions of other templates at Somerset Hills.
Some of the holes have interesting names, like "Dolomites"

The island green is an adaptation of the short, where instead of sand/bunkering surrounding the green, water surrounds the green.
Westhampton's (Raynor 1914) 11th hole is named "Island"

[John Moore II]

What about RTJ's forced water carry par 3?

Yes indeed. Golden Horseshoe (Gold) has 4 of those, including one island. Yikes

Dye has two...

Island green and another one of his par 3 concepts.  I can't describe it, I'll post pics tonight.  Essentially, it is water or a bunker directly in the line of fire to the green, but fairway up the side.  Play to the green over the hazard in one shot or play two up the side. Like I said, I'll post photos tonight.

I personally think the Island hole is a great modern template hole. They need to be done correctly and with good quality, but when they are, they don't get boring. The one at The Pit where it plays like 200+ yards from the back tee is stupid, then again, so is much of that golf course. The only Island I have seen (well other than The Pit) is at Golden Horseshoe, and I liked it. Hopefully one day I'll get to play some of the Dye Islands.

[Michael Dugger]

Leven

[Jud_T]

Maiden

[Ian Andrew]

The 12th at Augusta has lots of copies - I would consider that at template hole now.



The question I was going to ask some time in the near future would be:

If you were going the route of Macdonald now, what would now be the ideal 18 holes that you would base you template holes around.

[Ronald Montesano]

I want to go on record and state that I DON'T think that The Pit is stupid.  I enjoyed the course, even in the 100 degree heats of a 2009 summer.  I also don't think that the island hole at The Pit is stupid, neither.

[V. Kmetz]

Jud and Michael,

Definitely thanks for those - what were some of the first holes (courses) where the Maiden and Leven templates were used; what european holes were they drawn from?

Patrick

the Knoll was definitely one I overlooked...where are some of the notable ones (I know of Yale's 14th) and was that drawn from a European model or an independent creation of CBM.

I didn't include NGLA's 1st, 5th (Valley and Hogback) because I never understood them to be template holes but something just for NGLA.  is that correct?

NGLA's 11th "plateau" is the "Double Plateau" template - but is there something distinct for that hole that makes it distinct from one called Double Plateau?

Everybody else:  Thank you and keep the information coming.

Any information on other architect's templates is most welcome.  I'm interested to hear if any of you who know the Ross oeuvre well, know if he is regularly noted for his "diagonal hazard in the second shot" zone on long holes.  At Siwanoy, all four of the holes over 420 yards have (or originally had) a great diagonal hazard guarding the longer second shot, to the extent it makes me wonder if that was a regualr trope of his on longer two shot and three shot holes.

cheers

vk

[Michael Dugger]

From the George Bahto interview...

The ‘Leven’ hole is what most of us know as the 17th at National – one of the great holes in this country. Only 360 yards and downhill to a wide fairway, the hazards seem strewn in a haphazard manner. However, nothing is haphazard about National’s strategy. There are lots of ways to play the Leven, but the main crux of the problem is to place the tee ball precisely. Carry the hazard, placed on one side of a fairway, from the tee and a clear view of the putting surface with a short-iron approach awaits. Fail, and the player is left with a blind approach over bunkered sandhills or a high shoulder of a greenside bunker to the short side of the green. A great strategy to test players who are uncomfortable when they cannot see the target.

[Michael Dugger]

From Ran's Mid Ocean write up

Fourteenth hole, 355 yards, Leven; Macdonald borrowed a design concept from the original seventh hole at Leven Golf Club in Scotland when he built the famous seventeenth at National Golf Links of America, long considered one of the best medium length par four holes in American golf. Similarly here, Macdonald created an arresting bunker complex down the left of the fairway and another stunning one at the green’s right front. The time-honored challenge is evident: flirt with the bunkers and drive the ball long left to be rewarded with a clear view of the green. As one shies away to the right, he is forced to accept a forced carry over the deep greenside bunker.

[Brad Swanson]

Dan Moore has a post somewhere in the archives that nicely demonstrates how Langford appeared to use some consistent themes, if not rigid templates, across a number of his courses.

Brad

[Mac Plumart]

Here are two pictures of that Dye par 3 that I see him use again and again...

PDGC of WV view from tee box




Paiute Wolf view from green back to tee




I also see him use this diagonal carry again and again on par 4's...

PDGC OF WV



Kiawah Ocean

[Michael Dugger]

Who doesn't use cross-hazards, Mac?

This is the problem with template holes.

Where does the template end???

What is original and unique???

Is anything unique and original anymore?  If it is, does it need named???  Should Doak's "E" shaped green hole at Ballyneal get a template name???

[Mac Plumart]

Huh?

I don't understand your point Michael.

I've seen Dye use that par 3 "template" on the vast majority of his courses and the same goes with that diagonal par 4 shot.

I am not saying it is bad...in fact, I think that diagonal carry is my favorite "template" in his bag of tricks.  But he uses it over and over and over...isn't that the point of the thread to point out repetitive holes?

[Michael Dugger]

For the most part, a "template" hole has mostly to do with copying the important features of another, generally ancient, golf hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jud and Michael,

Definitely thanks for those - what were some of the first holes (courses) where the Maiden and Leven templates were used; what european holes were they drawn from?

Patrick

the Knoll was definitely one I overlooked...where are some of the notable ones (I know of Yale's 14th) and was that drawn from a European model or an independent creation of CBM.

Some refer to Piping Rock's 13th as a Knoll hole, the 18th at The Knoll is named the Knoll, but, I think it's more a name representing the finish at the clubhouse rather than the features of the hole.

I didn't include NGLA's 1st, 5th (Valley and Hogback) because I never understood them to be template holes but something just for NGLA.  
Is that correct?


No, other courses have "Hogback" and "Valley" holes, the Knoll being one of them.

NGLA's 11th "plateau" is the "Double Plateau" template - but is there something distinct for that hole that makes it distinct from one called Double Plateau?

There's a distinct difference between a "Plateau" and a "Double Plateau", especially when the double plateau is oriented like the one at NGLA.
While there are similarities, I've found the "Double Plateau" to be a far more difficult hole due to the green complex.


Everybody else:  Thank you and keep the information coming.

Any information on other architect's templates is most welcome.  I'm interested to hear if any of you who know the Ross oeuvre well, know if he is regularly noted for his "diagonal hazard in the second shot" zone on long holes.  At Siwanoy, all four of the holes over 420 yards have (or originally had) a great diagonal hazard guarding the longer second shot, to the extent it makes me wonder if that was a regualr trope of his on longer two shot and three shot holes.

cheers

vk

[Dan Herrmann]

Speaking of Pete Dye...  How about the long par 4 with water most of the way on the left up to an including the green area.  Oh yeah, they tend to be #18 (Bulle Rock, PDGC, TPC Sawgrass).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Speaking of Pete Dye...  How about the long par 4 with water most of the way on the left up to an including the green area.  Oh yeah, they tend to be #18 (Bulle Rock, PDGC, TPC Sawgrass).

Dan, there are thousands of holes like that in Florida, pre and post Pete Dye.

[Dan Herrmann]

Patrick,
AAAhhh - My bad

(I don't have much exposure to Florida golf, but I can certainly appreciate your point.

[V. Kmetz]

Hi Mac (and Michael)

Mac - in this instance, I was indeed looking for the "Template" holes that Macdonald observed, grafted - not merely holes that are repeated.

However, I was also looking for what you presented - other architects (CBM) who made or re-envisioned a general concept (like diagonal lines of play that can be found on many of CBM's Template holes) and made it their own.

That Dye "trope" of the water -side par 3 is indeed its own kind of signatory look.

I like to know more about that Dolomites concept that one of you put up re:Tillie

cheers

vk

[Patrick_Mucci]

V Kmetz,

While its par can vary, I'd add one of my favorite, if not my favorite holes, the SKYLINE green hole to the list of templates.

I know that Donald Ross employed this feature/template at a number of courses.
CBM's use on # 18 at NGLA is brilliant.
But, off the top of my head, I can't think of any Raynor or Banks Skyline greens.
Maybe # 17 at Essex County East or # 9 at Westhampton years ago.

Coore & Crenshaw have also used it.

While the configuration of the property has to co-operate, I often ask myself why there aren't more skyline greens.

I suspect that the American penchant for "framing" may be a reason.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The Volcano hole is another.

[V. Kmetz]

Patrick,
what's the volcano one, JK?

Good call on the skyline...that's a wonderful reappearing conceptual feature, Tillinghast did it very, very well on Fenway's second.

My favorite (because it's best known to me) Ross course has been Siwanoy and Ross employs no less than 7 skyline approaches in what I think is the most masterful use of property routing I have ever seen.  The club's bold, but judicious, removal of 90% of their trees - which gets the property back to the Ross era in which it was sited - has restored five of these skyline shots

What is that difference between a hole with the double plateau green (named "Plateau" at NGLA (#11)) and the features of hole called "Double Plateau" at other venues of the CBM-Raynor-Banks family.

The five or six other double plateau holes I've played (Yale 17, Fisher's 9, (18 may qualify too) my unmentionable favorite #1, (perhaps Sleepy Hollow's 9th?) seem to be orientated with great similarity...

"Front Left plateau rising out of the left approach fairway ground, concave depression in the right center, sloping to a second, smaller (but sharper and more defined rear right plateau"

Is there a variation or altogether different hole named for a single "Plateau," a different style of "Double Plateau" hole of which I'm unaware and is there great variation with double plateau green deployment of which I'm unaware.

Also, right now I can't get out my Scotland's Gift - but do we know from exactly where all the NGLA holes were templated (as well as the forms that do not appear on NGLA...Biarritz...etc)

??

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