Great courses on poor soil?

[Ally Mcintosh]

What are the best courses built on poor draining soil?... How many of the World Top 100?

I realise that there is middle ground here and also that some courses have had so much sand thrown down on them that the nature of the soil has changed over the years... So it's not an exact question...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ally,

Somewhat OT, but in reviewing all those old articles posted on the Merion threads, I noted that Tillie was already of the opinion in 1913 that a course could be built in the Sahara desert, given enough funds. 

In fact, so little of America has sandy soil, that I suspect the % of American courses built on anything near perfect soil is far less than 10%.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

Somewhat OT, but in reviewing all those old articles posted on the Merion threads, I noted that Tillie was already of the opinion in 1913 that a course could be built in the Sahara desert, given enough funds. 

In fact, so little of America has sandy soil, that I suspect the % of American courses built on anything near perfect soil is far less than 10%.

Hi Jeff, I guess the question is somewhat oblique because money can change the nature of anything, whether that be too much sand... or not enough of it.

Still, 10% of courses in America is 2,400 and most of the great ones were on good soil, were they not?... How many were originally on heavy clay?... How has the nature of that soil changed over 90 years?

[BCrosby]

ANGC is one.

[Ron Csigo]

ANGC is one.

That seems surprising.  Wasn't ANGC built on a site that was previously used as a nursery for trees?  Just curious.

[Mike Hendren]

ANGC is one.

Bob, that was my immediate thought as well.   I have read where Nicklaus recalled that as recently as the sixties fairways at Augusta were often dirt and lies had a great impact on iron play and particularly whether one could reach the par fives in two. 

Mike

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ally,

Frankly, I would say perhaps 1-2% of great courses are on sand.  Of the typical top 10, PV, Pinehurst and what other courses from the GA were on sand?  Bandon and Sand Hills if we go modern.

I don't know but I bet most of NYC is clay, and I know Georgia, Texas, Philly, Chicago and most of the midwest is.  

I think much of the history of early american gca is adapting a sandy seaside game to varying conditions in the USA, including trees and clay soils.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

Frankly, I would say perhaps 1-2% of great courses are on sand.  Of the typical top 10, PV, Pinehurst and what other courses from the GA were on sand?  Bandon and Sand Hills if we go modern.

I don't know but I bet most of NYC is clay, and I know Georgia, Texas, Philly, Chicago and most of the midwest is.  

I think much of the history of early american gca is adapting a sandy seaside game to varying conditions in the USA, including trees and clay soils.

Thanks Jeff - It's something I'd never really looked in to before. What about the Long Island courses?

Were these courses therefore designed with surface drainage very much in mind? Were sites chosen on that basis do you think?

Has the nature of the soil on these courses changed so considerably over time that if you started from scratch on the same land parcel, they'd be considered as having good free-draining soil?

[Fred Yanni]

The Golf Club is the best course I have played on bad soil - I believe it is built on clay and drains very very poorly.  

[Scott Warren]

Jeff Brauer:

Frankly, I would say perhaps 1-2% of great courses are on sand.  Of the typical top 10, PV, Pinehurst and what other courses from the GA were on sand?  Bandon and Sand Hills if we go modern.

I don't know but I bet most of NYC is clay, and I know Georgia, Texas, Philly, Chicago and most of the midwest is. 

I think much of the history of early american gca is adapting a sandy seaside game to varying conditions in the USA, including trees and clay soils.

We have great courses outside the USA too...

GB&I links courses are on sand, Melbourne sandbelt is on sand, London Heathland has sandy soil.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ally,

Then and now, I think MOST courses were located near where people would want to play, on the close outskirts of major cities, despite soils.  Having players is always the first consideration, no?

Soil hasn't changed.    In those days, they knew how to move earth to create surface drainage, and probably tried to choose gently rolling sites without a lot of flat, poorly drained areas, although the old books show filling some swamps.

Drainage of poor soils has gotten more sophisticated.  They seemingly used ag methods of french drains for sub surface drainage.  However, railroads and paved roads had started using surface pipes years before, but I get the feeling golf was viewed more as an ag related thing, and not worthy of all the engineering that went into highway and railroad drainage, mostly for cost reasons.

[Tom_Doak]

Sand is a huge factor.  Sixteen of the top twenty in the world are built on sand ... Augusta, Oakmont, Pebble Beach and Merion are the exceptions.  And seven of my top ten are on sand.  It is just so much easier to build stuff without worrying about topsoil replacement, USGA greens, etc.  Also drainage issues are much less sticky and easier to resolve.

[Chris Buie]

It's interesting because only 10 miles north of Pinehurst the soil is clay - and the drainage is remarkably bad.  I've played a curious course built there a couple of times and if it has rained within the past few days there are puddles. 
Never wear your nicer pants when playing on clay.  Well, that is unless you are playing one of the courses Mr. Doak just listed.  In that case, wear your best pants.   

[Jud_T]

This is why Chicago, although home to a plethora of courses public and private, cannot be in contention for best golf town....

[Jim Sweeney]

Winged Foot must be on clay. Camargo is clay.

[PCCraig]

This is why Chicago, although home to a plethora of courses public and private, cannot be in contention for best golf town....

Perhaps, but there are upsides to living in Chicago as well compared to a place like Bandon or Pinehurst...such as the culinary scene! You can't live on Grandma's Meatloaf forever

[Jud_T]

Pat,

We've met.  It's fairly obvious that I could do with a bit more walking of sand-based golf courses and a bit less fancy food and wine.....  

[Kenny Baer]

ANGC is one.

That is exactly what I was going to say; underneath the turf on #9 at Augusta CC is completely hard compacted GA red clay and you actually play across Ray's Creek on your 3rd shot on that particular hole.