[Jason Connor]

Let's imagine that instead of having huge greens that the greens were smaller and tended to be surrounded by water.

Would those greens be more playable?  Or easier to score on?

I think not.

[Jim Franklin]

I just got back from 8 rounds at Bandon (3 at Old Mac) and I LOVED Old Mac. One thing I tried to do each hole because the greens were so big and contoured, was to see how many different pinnable spots there were. There were certainly more than 2 and closer to 6 or 7 (minimum) per hole. The variety of shots you will play, conditions you will play in make this course a real treat to play.

Our caddies were terrific (I skipped the trolley Huck) and gave us a variety of different shot suggestions. Fortunately, they NEVER said "don't hit here or don't do this" it was always "hit it here with x speed" or something to that effect. We posted some good scores there with the wind down and some others when the wind was up. On the Biarritz hole, into a 25mph cross wind, 3 of us hit it to 3 feet to a pin I never thought you could get close to. The caddies said hit it here and the ball will release and run to the hole. The other guy missed the pin to the right and made bogey.

The only hole I did not like was the Redan. I failed to hit it all 3 rounds and only got up and down once. One of our guys birdied it, but for the most part, it was not receptive. I have never played the original Redan, but this was unlike any other I have played.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim F:  I think that the Redan at Old Macdonald might be the hardest Redan hole in the world, but where on earth did you get the idea that the Redan is supposed to be RECEPTIVE?  That's a word I've never thought of at North Berwick or National.


Michael W:  I don't mean to dis your friend.  I just think he had a bad day out there, which was set up by the caddies' warning.  His critique of the greens is not accurate -- they may be overwhelmingly big, but they are not overwhelmingly severe, unless you are hitting bad iron shots to the wrong part of the green and leaving yourself 75-footers all day.  

It is probably true that nothing will piss off a 3-handicap like getting on the bogey train on holes that appear to be wide open ... and if you get dispirited before the turn, you are going to be pissed off big time after holes 10, 11 and 12, which is by far the hardest stretch on the course.

But, that's okay.  We never expected it would be everyone's favorite.  With those neighbors, we were just hoping for 26%.

[Carl Rogers]

Some thing tells this 5 handicapper that the key to this course is the second shot and that you might as well hit at the flag.

Some golfers on some courses deal with diificult flagstick location by aiming away to a 'safe' part of the green and having a longer but easier putt than the short side up and down.  Some thing tells me OM may turn that notion on its head.  I will find out next February.

[Tim Pitner]

I haven't yet played Old Macdonald so can't comment specifically, but if you're stuck on a card and pencil mentality while you're at Bandon (on any course) with 36-hole days, high winds, unbelievable views, great links turf and atmosphere, then you're a lost cause (IMHO, of course). 

[Bill Brightly]

I loved Old Mac but I am not at all surprised by Michael's friend's comments. As a MacRaynor fan, I have learned that many low handicappers have strong opinions about what they like and dislike on a golf course, and they generally dislike things that they perceive to be strange and over the top. So you take a guy who has played a thousand rounds on typical American courses and plays his first MacRaynor on Old Mac, he is going to whine.

For example, I think the Short Hole green is one of the wildest I have played (and I wonder if goes too far...) I pulled my 7 iron to the wrong section of the green and really had no direct way to get to the back/center pin, until I figured out a way by hitting the putt way left and above the hole. It curled back for a 6 inch tap in, but I wonder how many low handicappers will 3-putt there and walk away miffed? (I already KNOW that I hit a poor shot and the Short Hole is all about testing my short irons...most players wont get that.)

I also like my Redans with a large kick mound off the green...but TD seems to not.

That is why I would love to see the caddies educated on Macdonald's template concepts, and/or some type of yardage book that includes a brief background on each hole. I think that might soften the reaction for some players who don't go there with a knowledge of CB Macdonald. For example, wouldn't it be helpful if a player opened up a yardage book and he also saw National's and North Berwick's redans when he came to Old Mac's?

[DMoriarty]

Calling OM a match play course and not at stroke play course would have been high praise to Macdonald.  They were all supposed to be matchplay courses.   

But I don't get this bit about the severity of the greens. 

[Jud_T]

The odd thing is that Michael says his friend is extremely well-travelled and "gets it".  Let's hear from the source.....

[George Freeman]

Scenario A: Golfer misses a "normal" sized green in regulation, chips on, and two putts for a bogey.

Scenario B: Golfer hits a very "oversized" green in regulation, equal distance from the hole as his approach in Scenario A, three putts for bogey.

In the average golfers mind, Scenario A will be a lot easier to chew than Scenario B.  A result of the game's never ending push towards par/pencil pushing minded golf.  I would imagine if people don't like Old Mac, it would be due to something along these lines.

Golfer hits X greens in regulation, and makes Y bogeys due to three putts.  Golfer hits less than X greens in regulation, and still makes Y bogeys...six of one, half dozen of another, but they lead to different feelings of success/failure.

[Richard Choi]

When I first read the OP, I figured the guy was a low single digit handicapper. OM is definitely the kind of course those guys may not like because they can have 15 or even 18 GIR and still score in the 80's. Mid and high handicappers will love it as you won't lose your balls. GCA'ers will love it because it is a living museum.

Personally, I think OM has the best set of greens I have ever seen and I wouldn't change a thing.

As to the Redan hole, the greatest disappointment of my opening day rounds at OM was the fact that the wind was blowing in from the South and I hit a 5 wood into the wind to safely land it on the Redan green without any roll. I REALLY wanted to land it short and have it run up. Why would anyone critcize a Redan hole for playing like a Redan hole should?

[Mark_Fine]

This thread got my attention about over contoured greens.  I get to spend some time in Hilton Head Island and played Heron Point at Sea Pines soon after it was redesigned a few years ago by Pete Dye.  I told Cary Corbitt, Director of Sports for the resort that Heron Point might be the toughest golf course on the island (by several shots).  Many of the green surfaces were so severe that I felt the average resort player would not finish holes and would just pick up.  I said frankly that I’m not sure they’ll want to come back.

I just played Heron Point again last week and Pete had since been in and soften many of the greens.  Apparently golfers were avoiding the course because it just wasn’t any fun to five putt and it got old playing ping pong back and forth across the green complexes.  As a low handicapper I enjoy a challenging golf course, however, I am not a big fan of overly contrived greens.  They definitely “defend par” but when carried to an extreme, can be downright goofy.  Like any design feature, if overused, it can get tiresome. 

The redesign of the redesign by Pete at Heron Point has turned out fantastic.  There is still plenty of interest and contour to challenge the best golfers out there yet the average resort players (who are mostly looking to finish all the holes) have a better chance to do so.  Apparently the course is getting much more play so that is the best indication of success. 

I have not yet played Old Mac so have no on course comment.  I would have guessed with greens that large, pin locations would not be an issue.   By the way, one definition of a good "match play course" (there are many) is a course where very high scores on holes are possible and to speed up play, golfers just pick up and take loss of hole in their match.  They are not worried about total strokes.  Merion was set up like that a few years ago.  If you missed the fairways, the rough was literally knee high and almost always resulted in a lost ball or unplayable lie.  I myself called it a great "match play set up".  If you mess up one hole, it's only one hole.  Pick up and move on to the next one and try to do better. 

[George Pazin]

Scenario A: Golfer misses a "normal" sized green in regulation, chips on, and two putts for a bogey.

Scenario B: Golfer hits a very "oversized" green in regulation, equal distance from the hole as his approach in Scenario A, three putts for bogey.

In the average golfers mind, Scenario A will be a lot easier to chew than Scenario B.  A result of the game's never ending push towards par/pencil pushing minded golf.  I would imagine if people don't like Old Mac, it would be due to something along these lines.

Golfer hits X greens in regulation, and makes Y bogeys due to three putts.  Golfer hits less than X greens in regulation, and still makes Y bogeys...six of one, half dozen of another, but they lead to different feelings of success/failure.

Nice post, I agree completely.

Few things architecture-wise annoy me as much as a good player saying the average golfer would find this too hard, struggle, etc. Highly condescending, to say the least. Apologies if that offends your friend, it's not an attack, it's an observation and an admission.

[Jim Franklin]

Tom D -

Receptive may not be the appropriate word. Most Redans that I have played have a bank on the right front so a draw shot can hit there and bounce left. I am not an architect, I have not played North Berwick, but have played National, and #12 was different. I am not saying it was bad different, just different. I thought the course, as a whole, was as fun as golf gets. You and Jim did a remarkable job. I need to play North Berwick so I know what a true Redan is supposed to be and not what I think they are supposed to be.

[Will Smith]

The man who regards golf as a matter of 'card and pencil' is not a golfer at all, for he has lost his soul in arithmetic, whereas the true golfer puts his soul into the game for the love of it. - CB Macdonald

[Jim Franklin]

The man who regards golf as a matter of 'card and pencil' is not a golfer at all, for he has lost his soul in arithmetic, whereas the true golfer puts his soul into the game for the love of it. - CB Macdonald

Thanks Will, that is a great quote.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Old Mac is golfing wise firstly a 2nd shot course.  Put the approach shot in the right spot and the greens are down right tame.  The example that proves the rule is #5, the Short hole, where I've witnessed more near aces and birdies in it's short 2.5 months than any other resort par three,yet easily is the wildest green on the course.

I've also had 2 players in the past two months best their scores on the other resort courses by 10 or more shots on Old Mac.  The first was a 2 handicap and phenomenal ball striker, the second a 17 handicap and very average at all aspects.

Old Mac is an incredible, FUN course.  Calling it a match play course smacks of missing the whole point to the course, the thrill of the journey with a multitude of playing options at every shot.  

So, Mr. Whitaker, one of four things is going on here:

1.  Your friend is a lousy ball striker
2.  Your friend is a lousy putter
3.  Your friends caddie wasn't good enough to help him hit close to the pins
4.  Your friend is Stevie Wonder

One of your guests, who has made repeated visits and says he loves the place, says a few critical things about one of the four courses with the strongest statement being he’d rather play one of the other courses and you call him blind and a lousy golfer?

Bandon is a very cool place with outstanding golf, but the last time I was out there the customer service was just OK. The tee markers had all been moved way up, the professional staff was courteous but cool to questions from a first time visitor, and the guys in the yellow jackets seemed to be around us all the time making sure we were keeping pace even though we had no where to go.   

I love the place as well and I hope they never get complacent because of their success.

[Jim Nugent]

The man who regards golf as a matter of 'card and pencil' is not a golfer at all, for he has lost his soul in arithmetic, whereas the true golfer puts his soul into the game for the love of it. - CB Macdonald

Says the man who, upon losing the 1st U.S. Amateur in 1894, (two of them as I understand iit), had it (them) declared unofficial, making him the "first" winner in 1895.  I don't know the details, but doesn't look good for CBM at first glance. 

[JC Jones]

I haven't played Old Mac but apparently that isn't a pre-requisite to posting on this thread....

[Eric Johnson]

 The tee markers had all been moved way up,

Jeez Don, let us know the next time you are @ BDGR....we'll be sure to have the green tees moved to the scorecard yardage. 



OR



you can play from the black tees!

[Mark_Fine]

Will,
Macdonald obviously had a math problem.  Most of us "golfers" can count to four or five (and don't need a pencil to do it).   
Mark

[John Kirk]

I played five rounds at Old Macdonald last week.  I presently have an index of about 3, and am in a noticeable slump.  My scores were:


Black tees about 6900 yards  74.1/133
Green tees about 6350 yards  71.3/127

82 (post 79) (black tees) - featured a 9 on the Road Hole where I putted into the back bunker and took 3 to get out.
77 (black tees)
87 (post 85) (black tees)
84 (black tees)
73 (green tees) - On the last day, after playing or caddying 36 a day for four straight days, I finally put together a beautiful round, with a birdie on the Redan, a par on the Road, and a great eagle on the 15th that I will remember forever.

After playing through the fatigue, I played well on the fifth day.  I see no reason to believe the rating/slope is grossly in error.  This would indicate another 77 or 78 would put me in 2-3 territory.

But it also should be noted that I find that playing one tee longer than one's ability merits can have a profound influence on one's score.  When I go back this week, I'll still play the blacks a couple times, but I do have to hit a lot of long irons, where my game is weak.

[David Botimer]

Old Mac is golfing wise firstly a 2nd shot course.  Put the approach shot in the right spot and the greens are down right tame.  The example that proves the rule is #5, the Short hole, where I've witnessed more near aces and birdies in it's short 2.5 months than any other resort par three,yet easily is the wildest green on the course.

I've also had 2 players in the past two months best their scores on the other resort courses by 10 or more shots on Old Mac.  The first was a 2 handicap and phenomenal ball striker, the second a 17 handicap and very average at all aspects.

Old Mac is an incredible, FUN course.  Calling it a match play course smacks of missing the whole point to the course, the thrill of the journey with a multitude of playing options at every shot.  

So, Mr. Whitaker, one of four things is going on here:

1.  Your friend is a lousy ball striker
2.  Your friend is a lousy putter
3.  Your friends caddie wasn't good enough to help him hit close to the pins
4.  Your friend is Stevie Wonder

One of your guests, who has made repeated visits and says he loves the place, says a few critical things about one of the four courses with the strongest statement being he’d rather play one of the other courses and you call him blind and a lousy golfer?

Bandon is a very cool place with outstanding golf, but the last time I was out there the customer service was just OK. The tee markers had all been moved way up, the professional staff was courteous but cool to questions from a first time visitor, and the guys in the yellow jackets seemed to be around us all the time making sure we were keeping pace even though we had no where to go.   

I love the place as well and I hope they never get complacent because of their success.

Don,

Humbly, I think you missed a couple of my points which might have required reading between the lines.

1.  Disliking Old Macdonald because it is such a unique course for America is entirely acceptable.  Admittedly, not everybody likes it because of that.  To those I say "hey, we've got 3 other fabulous courses here you may like!".  Disliking it because it isn't scoreable?  It is the 2nd easiest course at BDGR just behind Bandon Dunes, with a mix of birdie (1, 5, 9, 13, 15, and 17), par, and bogey (10-12, fasten your seat belts!!!) opportunities.

2.  The correct answer to the 4 possibilities?  #3 obviously.  My fellow caddie who convinced his player on the 1st tee he couldn't score on the course was wrong on several levels.  I meant no disrespect to Mr. Whitaker's friend and I communicated that to him.

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