[Bill Brightly]

Because beyond the anti-access whoring, none of these people support the way you slammed the entire website.

They would be so embarrassed that you would bring up another website. They respect Ran too much. They know you screwed up with that line. They know you are too gutless to admit it and take it back. So they remain in private, if they even exist at all, which I doubt.

I feel sad for you, you sound like a whiney little guy who has kept up the same tired criticisms of this website for EIGHT years. You have neither the courage to quit nor the intellectual capacity to stay involved and help make it better.

[Donnie Beck]

You say you have received many private messages supporting your trashing of this website? Post then names!!!  Or tell them to show some courage and respond here.

I haven't sent any pm's ...... but I couldn't agree with the following quote more.

But something happened.  Something happened on this DG that I can't really put a finger on.  In many ways this DG is dead (at least to me it is).  There is still great content in the interviews, the IMO's, the course reviews, but the DG just isn't the same.  I know I'm not the only one that feels this way.  I can't speak for their personal reasons for not being on here but there are some very good people that no longer post on here and that is a shame.  Some of these guys contributed so much more than all but a select few that still post and to see them not contribute saddens me. 


Bring back Tommy Naccarato. 


Jeff F. 

[Mark_F]

I have granted access to people before and found that each time I did so from an unsolicited advance i generally regretted it.  Just my experience though.[/color]

I have had the exact opposite experience.

I wish people would access whore more.  I am there for the taking.

[John Moore II]

I have granted access to people before and found that each time I did so from an unsolicited advance i generally regretted it.  Just my experience though.[/color]

I have had the exact opposite experience.

I wish people would access whore more.  I am there for the taking.

I'll play your course Mark. Where are you again?

[Jeff Fortson]

Because beyond the anti-access whoring, none of these people support the way you slammed the entire website.

They would be so embarrassed that you would bring up another website. They respect Ran too much. They know you screwed up with that line. They know you are too gutless to admit it and take it back. So they remain in private, if they even exist at all, which I doubt.

I feel sad for you, you sound like a whiney little guy who has kept up the same tired criticisms of this website for EIGHT years. You have neither the courage to quit nor the intellectual capacity to stay involved and help make it better.

I didn't bring up that "other website" by name in my original post.  I don't think the two sites are in any competition either.  It's not as if you have to choose between the two.  If Ran despises the "other website" then show me where he forbids its name to be mentioned.  What's wrong with saying I find myself spending more time over there recently?

I never shamed the entire website.  You are misrepresenting my words.  I only intended to bring attention to something I consider to detract from the site.  I named no names in my post and never intended to.

I don't care what you think of me.  The only reason I am engaged in conversation with you is becasue you have attacked me personally and feel it necessary to clear up many of your assumptions and mischaracterizations of what I have said.  Like I said before, I didn't even know who you were before you jumped in this thread.

Goading me by saying that these PM's don't exist isn't going to get me to divulge names.  I'm not slimy enough to involve people by name that sent me a "private" message.  If they want to get involved, they will.  

I don't plan on quitting anytime soon, so I guess I have no courage in your eyes and I must have tons of intellect because my original post was to try to make this place better.

Jeff

[Bill Brightly]

Donnie, I miss many of the old guys too. (I also miss being 17 and wrestling with my girlfriend in the back of my car...) How do you feel about this quote?

I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.

[Mark_F]

I'll play your course Mark. Where are you again?

Distance is so easily conquered these days, John...

And my club has two courses, so that makes you an access pimp.

[John Moore II]

I'll play your course Mark. Where are you again?

Distance is so easily conquered these days, John...

And my club has two courses, so that makes you an access pimp.

I think you would be the pimp, the course the W we intend to 'play' and I am the perp. of the crime, the 'john'... :O

[Donnie Beck]

Donnie, I miss many of the old guys too. How do you feel about this quote?

I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.

Bill,

I can see where Jeff is coming from. Unfortunately I have to agree that this site has changed for the worse over the years. I still enjoy it and visit daily but it isn't the same. I find myself lurking in the background more and more. It is really disheartening when you spend time to write something of substance only to see it disappear under a sea of OT and Tiger posts.

[Anthony Gray]

Donnie, I miss many of the old guys too. How do you feel about this quote?

I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.

Bill,

I can see where Jeff is coming from. Unfortunately I have to agree that this site has changed for the worse over the years. I still enjoy it and visit daily but it isn't the same. I find myself lurking in the background more and more. It is really disheartening when you spend time to write something of substance only to see it disappear under a sea of OT and Tiger posts.

  If the site is so bad then why do all the guys from "The Other Site" always know what is going on here?

 Anthony

[JESII]

Jeff,

I think you should recognize that all the angst against you here is because this is your only contribution to the site in a while...even on the other site, you need to make an effort to earn the right to bitch.

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff,

I think you should recognize that all the angst against you here is because this is your only contribution to the site in a while...even on the other site, you need to make an effort to earn the right to bitch.

Fair enough but that doesn't make my points false.

I'm working on a pictoral.  As soon as I can find the pictures and scan them I will be posting it.

JF

[JESII]

Jeff,

I think everyone will admit that your main points are, in fact, a problem...but they don't know you so they think you're an outsider telling them their house look like shit.

Post the pictorial and all will be forgiven, then we'll work on the main problems.

We haven't met, but we will.

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff,

I think everyone will admit that your main points are, in fact, a problem...but they don't know you so they think you're an outsider telling them their house look like shit.

Post the pictorial and all will be forgiven, then we'll work on the main problems.

We haven't met, but we will.

It'll be in the same vein as this...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16619.msg289255/

Looks like some of the pictures went missing.  Gotta track those down.


Jeff

[Tony Weiler]

Joel,

Will you host me at your club?

I would be happy to, schedule permitting.

I've hosted Mac Plumart, Eric Smith, Mark Pritchett, Shane Wright, Kalen Braley and Jed Rammel at various points in SC, Utah and Wisconsin, and all encounters were extremely pleasant....so I'm totally game.

You should at least have purchased one of Joel's books to qualify! 

[JESII]

Jeff,

I think everyone will admit that your main points are, in fact, a problem...but they don't know you so they think you're an outsider telling them their house look like shit.

Post the pictorial and all will be forgiven, then we'll work on the main problems.

We haven't met, but we will.

It'll be in the same vein as this...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16619.msg289255/

Looks like some of the pictures went missing.  Gotta track those down.


Jeff

Jeff,

I don't know, quickly scanning through the first page of responses to your initial post there on #10 Riviera, you know how to post conversation-generating threads...I say that because mine generally get swallowed up to page 2 in no time...

I joined as you were slowing down about 5 years ago...and no doubt, things have changed but only because it's bigger now. More people. To me, that means more of everything, good threads and bad threads. Look for the good stuff if you want, but don't if you don't...

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff,

I think everyone will admit that your main points are, in fact, a problem...but they don't know you so they think you're an outsider telling them their house look like shit.

Post the pictorial and all will be forgiven, then we'll work on the main problems.

We haven't met, but we will.

It'll be in the same vein as this...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16619.msg289255/

Looks like some of the pictures went missing.  Gotta track those down.


Jeff

Jeff,

I don't know, quickly scanning through the first page of responses to your initial post there on #10 Riviera, you know how to post conversation-generating threads...I say that because mine generally get swallowed up to page 2 in no time...

I joined as you were slowing down about 5 years ago...and no doubt, things have changed but only because it's bigger now. More people. To me, that means more of everything, good threads and bad threads. Look for the good stuff if you want, but don't if you don't...

My favorite response is reply #3.  Classic.  If I remember correctly it was an innocent question from someone in the U.K. but classic considering the content of the thread we are chatting on now.

Jeff F.

[Tony Weiler]

The whole AW thing has me a bit puzzled.  I can see not doing it coming from this site/DG, as that may very well not be appropo.  BUT, when the PGA was in Mpls. last year, I wanted to play Interlachen.  I contacted the Pro there and he said "sure, you can play for $375 each."  That's a bit too much for me, and my friends.  So, I started to see if I had any contacts that knew someone that knew someone who was a member?  Was that so wrong?  Fortunately, a businessman in my town had a brother who is a member there.  He was kind enough to give me the number of his brother, put in a heads up call for me, and let me know that his brother was a busy Dr., but he'd call me back.  I made several calls, talked about some mutual connections, and asked if he minded hosting us.  He said he would be delighted to, as he loved sharing the course with others.  

I was thrilled as it was my first Ross and with him it only cost $150.  Now, was that so wrong?  If he'd said no, I would have understood.  If you are a member at a prestigious private, would it not be enjoyable to host people from time to time?  I know, the difference is you are asking as opposed to being asked, and I can see if you are in Jeff's postition as an employee at a club and get constantly bombarded, but still, is it hard to just say NO.  Maybe I'm missing something, but I'll forever be greatful to the Interlachen member, and I think he really enjoyed the day as well.  What more can you ask for.  TW, AW (I guess).  

[Matthew Sander]

Tony,

WHY did you go back and edit the "busty Dr." line. I nearly wet myself ...I know, my maturity level is lacking...

[Ed Oden]

Jeff, please do not take this as an attack on you or your position with respect to access seekers.   But I have an honest question.  How do you feel about professional courtesy extended to pros, assistants, supers, GMs, etc. to play at clubs other than their place of employment?  Aren't those typically unsolicited requests for access, only from someone within the "industry"?  While I am not condoning blatant access whoring, I have a hard time getting worked up over what goes on here when it seems like the equivalent behavior occurs within the industry.  Again, I'm not trying to goad you.  Rather just trying reconcile what I perceive as a bit of a contradiction.

[Mark_F]

I think you would be the pimp, the course the W we intend to 'play' and I am the perp. of the crime, the 'john'... :O

John,

Of course.  My stupid.  All this talk of whores had me a bit quick on the trigger...

My favorite response is reply #3.  Classic.  If I remember correctly it was an innocent question from someone in the U.K. but classic considering the content of the thread we are chatting on now.

There are a hell of a lot worse things in life you could do than share some time with Philip Gawith (and his wife).  Anyone would consider themselves fortunate to have met them.

A truly excellent bloke (and sheila).

He was kind enough to give me the number of his brother, put in a heads up call for me, and let me know that his brother was a busy Dr., but he'd call me back.  I made several calls, talked about some mutual connections, and asked if he minded hosting us.  He said he would be delighted to, as he loved sharing the course with others.  

Tony,

Can you give me the doctor's name, please, just in case I find myself in Minnesota next year and in need of medical attention...

[Tony Weiler]

Tony,

WHY did you go back and edit the "busty Dr." line. I nearly wet myself ...I know, my maturity level is lacking...

Matthew, I didn't want him to "stick out" too much.   

[JC Jones]

Jeff, please do not take this as an attack on you or your position with respect to access seekers.   But I have an honest question.  How do you feel about professional courtesy extended to pros, assistants, supers, GMs, etc. to play at clubs other than their place of employment?  Aren't those typically unsolicited requests for access, only from someone within the "industry"?  While I am not condoning blatant access whoring, I have a hard time getting worked up over what goes on here when it seems like the equivalent behavior occurs within the industry.  Again, I'm not trying to goad you.  Rather just trying reconcile what I perceive as a bit of a contradiction.

Very good question, Ed.  I am interested to hear Jeff's answer.

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff, please do not take this as an attack on you or your position with respect to access seekers.   But I have an honest question.  How do you feel about professional courtesy extended to pros, assistants, supers, GMs, etc. to play at clubs other than their place of employment?  Aren't those typically unsolicited requests for access, only from someone within the "industry"?  While I am not condoning blatant access whoring, I have a hard time getting worked up over what goes on here when it seems like the equivalent behavior occurs within the industry.  Again, I'm not trying to goad you.  Rather just trying reconcile what I perceive as a bit of a contradiction.

Fair question but the answer is pretty simple.  One is a professional courtesy given between members of an industry, the other is a website dedicated to the "discourse" of course architecture. 

I am no longer a golf professional.  Matter of fact, I now have my amateur status back.  I doubt one would become a golf professional just to gain access to other golf clubs.  Sure, it is a perk, but it is probably not the motive behind one's reasoning to dedicate their professional life to an industry.  GCA.com is supposed to be a website of avid golfers interested in course architecture.  This website wasn't created to be a pick-up bar for people to go around asking for unsolicited access to another member's club.  It is also a perk that most members here will gain access to clubs through INVITES.  I have NO problem with that. 

People need to focus on what I am saying.  I am not denouncing the acceptance of an invite to another member's club.  Matter of fact, I support and encourage people to take those opportunities.  I simply don't think this should be viewed as some Holy Grail of internet access to cold call people about playing their course to tie another knot in their Top 100 belt.

If you can't see the difference between professional courtesy in an industry from peers to making unsolicited advances to people you may or may not know on an internet site, then I really don't think I could explain it in any way that will make sense to you.  Hope that answers the question.


Jeff F.

[JC Jones]

Jeff, word of advice:

This is a clear and cogent argument that is persuasive and compelling:

Fair question but the answer is pretty simple.  One is a professional courtesy given between members of an industry, the other is a website dedicated to the "discourse" of course architecture. 

I am no longer a golf professional.  Matter of fact, I now have my amateur status back.  I doubt one would become a golf professional just to gain access to other golf clubs.  Sure, it is a perk, but it is probably not the motive behind one's reasoning to dedicate their professional life to an industry.  GCA.com is supposed to be a website of avid golfers interested in course architecture.  This website wasn't created to be a pick-up bar for people to go around asking for unsolicited access to another member's club.  It is also a perk that most members here will gain access to clubs through INVITES.  I have NO problem with that. 

People need to focus on what I am saying.  I am not denouncing the acceptance of an invite to another member's club.  Matter of fact, I support and encourage people to take those opportunities.  I simply don't think this should be viewed as some Holy Grail of internet access to cold call people about playing their course to tie another knot in their Top 100 belt.

This statement completely undermines the above argument:

If you can't see the difference between professional courtesy in an industry from peers to making unsolicited advances to people you may or may not know on an internet site, then I really don't think I could explain it in any way that will make sense to you. 

If you actually care about this site (which I'm not sure you do) and you are concerned with the quality of the "discourse," then I suggest you stop your posts before you hit the "if you don't agree with me you are an idiot" portion.

Thanks

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