Has GCA.com jumped the shark?

[Shane Wright]

FYI...

Joel is a great host.  You will have a blast!

I second this!  Joel, I'm enjoying watching this weekend. 

[Roger Wolfe]

Roger,

I certainly don't consider myself part of an upper golfing class and my disposable income ain't what it used to be...Just as there's an etiquette to playing the game, I feel that it's completely innappropriate to ever invite myself to someone's club, even a close friend's.  It's tantamount to me calling you up out of the blue and saying, "Hey, I'm going to be in town.  Mind if I stop by for a home-cooked meal at your house?".  It's called manners my friend, and it has nothing to do with money.....

My point is that you shouldn't get offended if someone simply asks.  I think you will find most will come with zero expectations and, if the answer is
"no," they will say thanks for your consideration and move on.  I always use the high school dance example.  If an ugly guy asks a pretty girl to
dance, a nice "no... thanks for asking" is fine.  But if she gets upset about it... then she's a bitch.  That was my point and one I have made many
times on this site and I am sticking to it.

If you truly love golf and appreciate others who share your love of the game, you should be proud and honored they want to play your club... not
offended.

[Jud_T]

Roger,

I love having guests out at my club, and I think most of my friends will tell you that I'm not exactly a tightwad, in fact my wife will tell you that I'm overly generous in this regard.  I just think it's always the members place to do the asking.  I ask you out and if you feel so inclined and the opportunity presents itself, you reciprocate in some fashion.  I'm not sure where the "rich guys with golf attitude" came from.....

[JC Jones]

  I'm not sure where the "rich guys with golf attitude" came from.....

He knows you went to UofM.

[Jud_T]

Just for that you lost the Pine Valley invite....

[Jeff Fortson]

Roger,

I certainly don't consider myself part of an upper golfing class and my disposable income ain't what it used to be...Just as there's an etiquette to playing the game, I feel that it's completely innappropriate to ever invite myself to someone's club, even a close friend's.  It's tantamount to me calling you up out of the blue and saying, "Hey, I'm going to be in town.  Mind if I stop by for a home-cooked meal at your house?".  It's called manners my friend, and it has nothing to do with money.....

My point is that you shouldn't get offended if someone simply asks.  I think you will find most will come with zero expectations and, if the answer is
"no," they will say thanks for your consideration and move on.  I always use the high school dance example.  If an ugly guy asks a pretty girl to
dance, a nice "no... thanks for asking" is fine.  But if she gets upset about it... then she's a bitch.  That was my point and one I have made many
times on this site and I am sticking to it.

If you truly love golf and appreciate others who share your love of the game, you should be proud and honored they want to play your club... not
offended.

Roger,

With all due respect this is exactly what I'm talking about.  GCA.com should not be used like a "high school dance".  I know you use that as a mere analogy but it is spot on.  This site, for some, has become a pick up bar.  I have a very different view of what it's purpose is.  Maybe I am out of line to express how I feel the site should be handled by its members but I certainly don't think it should be used to proposition other users of this site to gain access to their clubs.  There are plenty of people on here that are happy to offer the invite to their clubs and I totally support that.  If someone offered me to play a club that I would love to play I might jump at the opportunity too.  It's the unabashed cold calling that disturbs me.  It drives people away and detracts from the site IMO.  I know I have pissed some people off but I have also received many PM's supporting what I am saying.  i'm not trying to police this, i am simply trying to bring attention to something I feel takes some of the allure away from this site.  obviously, there are some that find the possibility of gaining access to high profile clubs as the allure.  That, to me, is a shame.

Jeff F.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Joel.

For all you fellow AW's out there, transparency can be as effective as clandestine tactics.

A.W. - did I ever tell you about my experience at the National? Ask me about it if you ever get out to Cypress when I'm there. (If I'm not there, ask around and wait - I may be driving up from San Diego. But for god's sake, play it cool will ya).

Peter 

[Brian Laurent]

I am an access whore.  I use this site to access information, images and opinions on places I otherwise would not have access to.  Honestly, with the exception of a select few, I have no idea who is a member at or can provide access to which course(s).  

[Ken Moum]

The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.  

Examples?

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44989.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42431.msg955717/#msg955717
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43951.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43973.0/

And all those by the same person; shamefully, one of those threads I thought was ok and even on topic.

And honestly, I hope none of my posts about "Golf courses in XX City" have come off as trying to get any access. That has never been my intention. My sole intention on those threads was to get input on what public courses were the best places to see while I was there.

That's it?

Cripes, you guys have your panties in a bunch over nothing much..

K

[JC Jones]

Roger,

With all due respect this is exactly what I'm talking about.  GCA.com should not be used like a "high school dance".  I know you use that as a mere analogy but it is spot on.  This site, for some, has become a pick up bar.  I have a very different view of what it's purpose is.  Maybe I am out of line to express how I feel the site should be handled by its members but I certainly don't think it should be used to proposition other users of this site to gain access to their clubs.  There are plenty of people on here that are happy to offer the invite to their clubs and I totally support that.  If someone offered me to play a club that I would love to play I might jump at the opportunity too.  It's the unabashed cold calling that disturbs me.  It drives people away and detracts from the site IMO.  I know I have pissed some people off but I have also received many PM's supporting what I am saying.  i'm not trying to police this, i am simply trying to bring attention to something I feel takes some of the allure away from this site.  obviously, there are some that find the possibility of gaining access to high profile clubs as the allure.  That, to me, is a shame.

Jeff F.

The real problem is that your thread and what you are saying is completely played out.  We hear it at least once a year and it is tired.  We are well aware that you and others think the good ol days were the best days.  You are welcome to feel that way.  I understand you've moved on to greener pastures but there are plenty of people who see real value in GCA.com.  My honest, no playing around, advice to you is to quit the site and not worry about what happens here.  I assure you that if you email Ran and have him delete your profile you wont receive anymore Riviera requests. 

[Jeff Fortson]

The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.  

Examples?

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44989.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42431.msg955717/#msg955717
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43951.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43973.0/

And all those by the same person; shamefully, one of those threads I thought was ok and even on topic.

And honestly, I hope none of my posts about "Golf courses in XX City" have come off as trying to get any access. That has never been my intention. My sole intention on those threads was to get input on what public courses were the best places to see while I was there.

That's it?

Cripes, you guys have your panties in a bunch over nothing much..

K

I have not given names for a reason.  I am not attempting to shed light on individuals for access whoring.  I am trying to express my views on the subject itself.  My panties are definitely not in a bunch.  If anything, people that have a problem with the topic being brought up are the one's with that problem.

JF

[Jeff Fortson]

Roger,

With all due respect this is exactly what I'm talking about.  GCA.com should not be used like a "high school dance".  I know you use that as a mere analogy but it is spot on.  This site, for some, has become a pick up bar.  I have a very different view of what it's purpose is.  Maybe I am out of line to express how I feel the site should be handled by its members but I certainly don't think it should be used to proposition other users of this site to gain access to their clubs.  There are plenty of people on here that are happy to offer the invite to their clubs and I totally support that.  If someone offered me to play a club that I would love to play I might jump at the opportunity too.  It's the unabashed cold calling that disturbs me.  It drives people away and detracts from the site IMO.  I know I have pissed some people off but I have also received many PM's supporting what I am saying.  i'm not trying to police this, i am simply trying to bring attention to something I feel takes some of the allure away from this site.  obviously, there are some that find the possibility of gaining access to high profile clubs as the allure.  That, to me, is a shame.

Jeff F.

The real problem is that your thread and what you are saying is completely played out.  We hear it at least once a year and it is tired.  We are well aware that you and others think the good ol days were the best days.  You are welcome to feel that way.  I understand you've moved on to greener pastures but there are plenty of people who see real value in GCA.com.  My honest, no playing around, advice to you is to quit the site and not worry about what happens here.  I assure you that if you email Ran and have him delete your profile you wont receive anymore Riviera requests. 

You're entitled to that opinion but I don't think it is played out.  I certainly don't want to quit.  Why do you have such a huge problem with me bringing this up?  Am I shedding light on something that you don't want discussed?  Why don't you ignore me if this isn't a big deal to you?  I find it rather comical that I am being advised to leave over this.  What is so wrong with bringing this topic up?  If you disagree, fine.  It is obviously not a big deal to you so why are you spending so much time on it?

Jeff F.

[JC Jones]

Jeff,

I told you that you were successful in "outing" me.  That is my real axe to grind with you.  It has nothing to do with you not contributing anything of substance to this message board in quite some time and then coming on here and talking about all the access whoring that went on 3 years ago when you actually participated with any sort of regularity.

There is room in this world for two golf course architecture message boards, no need to bring up the same things you were complaining about 8 years ago in an attempt to gain supremacy. 

[Bill Brightly]

You know Jeff, if you had started this thread to crticize Acess Whoring it would be one thing. But you ripped the whole DG and said it is dead, USELESS, and that is that really pissed me off. Here is what you wrote:

"Maybe, I am the only one here that feels this way.  Maybe some of you think the DG is going strong right now.  I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.  Like I said, I still come here often and check out everything but this DG is dysfunctional.  Just look at all the great contributors that have left.  I know I am kind of rambling but I truly find it sad that this DG has turned into a gossip board that talks more about Tiger Woods than St. Andrews or who's got a bigger brain on the Merion threads.  I'm sick of the elitist mentalities, the groveling access whores, and relatives of famous golfers telling us how the game should be played.  

Bring back Tommy Naccarato. "


I say you are full of crap. Maybe there are a few AW's here, but they are a TINY minority and I would never let that stop my enjoyment of this site. The are 10 first page threads today that are as good or better than the year 2000. I went back and read them.

(OK, Mcwood, Cirba, TEP, Moriarity are playing nicely in a padded room , but we leave them alone...)

You totally rip something that many of us reallly enjoy: this website,  and we are gong to react accordingly. I love this website and you no longer do. MOVE ON

[Jud_T]

I'm not even sure who's at fault, but this thread is making me want to quit (Standing O from the peanut gallery)...

[JC Jones]

I'm not even sure who's at fault, but this thread is making me want to quit (Standing O from the peanut gallery)...

Like your football team will on RichRod in week 7?

[Jud_T]

First the Cubs, now this...I'm really a glutton for punishment....   Hey at least I had to spell my name correctly on the SAT test to get in.... 

[Jeff Fortson]

You know Jeff, if you had started this thread to crticize Acess Whoring it would be one thing. But you ripped the whole DG and said it is dead, USELESS, and that is that really pissed me off.

I said... "in many ways this DG is dead (at least to me it is)"... and I never said it was "USELESS".  I am ok with you not sharing my opinion but please don't misquote me.  Sorry if you felt like I singled you out to upset you this much.  I certainly don't recall mentioning you by name anywhere.

JF

[JC Jones]

You know Jeff, if you had started this thread to crticize Acess Whoring it would be one thing. But you ripped the whole DG and said it is dead, USELESS, and that is that really pissed me off.

I said... "in many ways this DG is dead (at least to me it is)"... and I never said it was "USELESS".  I am ok with you not sharing my opinion but please don't misquote me.  Sorry if you felt like I singled you out to upset you this much.  I certainly don't recall mentioning you by name anywhere.

JF

If it is dead then why kick it?  Why not walk away?

Your nifty attempt to label anyone who doesn't agree with your posts as an access whore is as transparent as your motivations for starting this thread.

[JC Jones]

First the Cubs, now this...I'm really a glutton for punishment....   Hey at least I had to spell my name correctly on the SAT test to get in.... 

The good news is that now when you guys stand around and talk about how you're just as good as the Ivy League schools you can include athletics in the discussion

[Jeff Fortson]

You know Jeff, if you had started this thread to crticize Acess Whoring it would be one thing. But you ripped the whole DG and said it is dead, USELESS, and that is that really pissed me off.

I said... "in many ways this DG is dead (at least to me it is)"... and I never said it was "USELESS".  I am ok with you not sharing my opinion but please don't misquote me.  Sorry if you felt like I singled you out to upset you this much.  I certainly don't recall mentioning you by name anywhere.

JF

If it is dead then why kick it?  Why not walk away?

Your nifty attempt to label anyone who doesn't agree with your posts as an access whore is as transparent as your motivations for starting this thread.

Once again i said in "many ways" it weas dead (TO ME).  I did walk away for a while.  Kids and work took a part in that but so did the minority of new blood that were out to bag their Top 100 lists.  I haven't attempted to label people that disagree with my view as being guilty of access whoring.  That is your conclusion.  My motivation in starting this thread were the 3 or 4 Tiger Woods threads, the Whip out your top courses played, the numerous threads devoted to ranking courses, etc. etc.  Am I not entitled to share that opinion?  Why don't you walk away from this thread if it bothers you so much?  Don't you see the hypocrisy of your request or advice to me?

JF

[JC Jones]

Perhaps if there were more politics threads you wouldn't be so distracted by the Tiger woods threads.

The rankings and whip it out threads are all have heavy participation from beloved members of the more sophisticated architecture message board. 

Why start this thread if you didn't want discussion?  Were you hoping you could get a bunch of people to agree with you and then use the list of participants for a recruiting drive?

[Anthony Gray]

  I went to a boxing match and a GCA thread broke out.So this site has much to offer in the future.Am certaintly offended at the implication of a face lick at Cruden Bay could infer that a shark has been jumped.

  Anthony

[Colin Macqueen]

Jeff F,

“.........but this DG is dysfunctional.”

I am a newcomer to this site in the last 3 months. I could be thought of was an “access whore” in the sense that I accessed and perved on this site for many months reveling in the cornucopia of ideas and information presented. I was invited to become a member and I am dismayed at the invective that you have introduced into the discussion group. I have found the forum welcoming, informative, amusing and fun. Off Thread subjects are obviously so or are highlighted as such. We can all skip ‘em if we want to. Now I, myself, may be somewhat dysfunctional but I certainly do not think the Discussion Group is in any way dysfunctional. I disagree entirely with your assertion. I rather suspect it mirrors society to a tee. I also think that your particular approach could deter neophytes, such as myself, from asking questions and/or becoming involved in current threads which would be a great shame.

Cheers Colin

[Melvyn Morrow]

The self-appointed Judge (Terry) of GCA.com DG has spoken and made his ruling ably assisted by the collector of access whores (what an awful name, guys), the recently released recluse Jeff Foreskin.

Jeff has decided that his whoring days are over, with both he and the less than noble judge placing much of the blame and their frustration on a lone Scot with a lineage as long as anyone else living.

Regard that distasteful expression l thought this site would have embraced requests from others to visit their courses as we are only talking of 1500 potential requests.  Of those 1500 worldwide members how many are within easy reach of any said course?

If you or your club do not offer the ‘courtesy of the course’ to golfers from time to time, that’s no problem as long as it made clear to whoever asks. As simple no, am unable or tha’st not the clubs policy, explained in a honest manner can go a long way with fellow Members of this DG.

For some reason or other I find myself with hundreds of offers each year to be the guest of this Club or that. I have arranged on behalf of others the ‘courtesy of a course’, numbers now going into four figures, yet there are times the clubs have had to decline due to one reason or other.  My only real regret was not getting Ernie Payne the courtesy of TOC when we celebrated a recent centenary celebration, but hey that life.

I think when it comes down to the DG I am minded of one great President who said  “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do  for your country” perhaps a similar commitment by Members using DG in place of country may go a long way in trying to understand the diverse mix of peoples we have on this site, although I accept Americans are in the majority. Perhaps for that reason an interjection of ‘winning the hearts and minds’ (a policy that has never really been implemented by your Government since WW2) or at the very least understand the point of views of other Non Americans may go a long way in improving discussions and thus topics.

Then what do I know, yet I am surprised that I have not been accused of being the product of inbreeding over the last 250 years  - expect that may yet transpire in future posts.

‘Access Whore’ the term alone is unpleasant and demeans the individual it is directed at, perhaps for no fault of his own apart from being unaware of your clubs/course policy on the matter.  Wouldn’t be novel to be in a position to want to help a fellow member, oh well thank God we have some very kind and considerate guys on this site that do that very thing, pity some other can’t bring themselves to follow those examples. What’s that old saying you can take a horse ops sorry mule to water but you can’t make it drink.

May the God(s) of Terry and Jeff try and open up their hearts but please open up their mind first for all our sakes.
Amen

Melvyn