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Scott Warren

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Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #100 on: August 12, 2010, 04:48:06 AM »
Melvyn,

You say about Old Tom Morris:

Quote
I am certain he would hate carts and certainly any form of distance aids.

Given in his lifetime he showed a willingness to embrace technology in the form of the gutta percha golf ball (no small matter in that day as evidenced by his falling out with Allan Robertson over the change) I struggle to see how, four or five generations later, you can claim with absolute certainty that he would hate the technological advances occurring in the current day.

I doubt anyone's ability to know how people, even their forebears, who died more than a century ago would view contemporary events and issues, and in this case the person in question's own actions lead us some way in the other direction from what you are stating with "certainty".

So how is it that you know how Old Tom would feel about 21st century technological advances and how did Old Tom, during his lifetime, demonstrate the feelings you are attributing to him?

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #101 on: August 12, 2010, 04:59:29 AM »
Melvyn,

I have to agree with Scott.  I think Old Tom would be embracing many of the changes in golf that has helped make the game an international sport for all and helped make a living for many a teaching pro around the world.

I think he would love the fact that the game has become easier to play than it was all those years ago which has helped more to play the game.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #102 on: August 12, 2010, 05:07:39 AM »

Scott

I would not dare to suggest that you are talking crap about your forefathers, nevertheless what right have you to question my or my family’s knowledge on Old Tom or any other relative.

Anyway should we be talking about my family on here at it seem to upset so many. Some may even consider that I am riding a wave for the sake of social improvement and wealth if I mention their names.

Agree with me or not that’s down to you and others

Melvyn

PS Brian I will send you a PM.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #103 on: August 12, 2010, 05:14:19 AM »
Quote
I would not dare to suggest that you are talking crap about your forefathers, nevertheless what right have you to question my or my family’s knowledge on Old Tom or any other relative.

Melvyn,

I simply asked for you to tell us what Old Tom demonstrated or said in his lifetime that enables you four or five generations later and more than 100 years after his death to be certain of how he would view current events.

Most of your posts include Old Tom's name, so I can't accept that you have an aversion to discussing him.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 05:16:08 AM by Scott Warren »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #104 on: August 12, 2010, 05:26:28 AM »


Scott

Most of my posts do not include his name

Melvyn

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #105 on: August 12, 2010, 05:48:37 AM »
Melvyn, I invite you to answer my question from post #100:

How is it that you know how Old Tom would feel about 21st century technological advances and how did Old Tom, during his lifetime, demonstrate the feelings you are attributing to him?

You wrote:

Quote
what right have you to question my or my family’s knowledge on Old Tom or any other relative.

If you are going to state, with a claim of certainty, how someone from the 19th Century would view matters of the new millennium, I don't think it is unfair to ask what acts/comments from the person's life lead you to take that position with such conviction.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #106 on: August 12, 2010, 05:53:40 AM »

Scott

I have already answered your question as I said Agree with me or not that’s down to you and others

Melvyn

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #107 on: August 12, 2010, 06:51:27 AM »
If you've got a problem with someone it's always better to take it up with them directly and privately. If someone has a problem with Melvyn send him a private message instead of a thinly veiled, passive aggressive reference.

If there's a problem with access whoring, take it up with the whore and then Ran and Ben. Since I'm not a member at a nice enough club to be access whored it's hard for me to believe that it is that big of a problem. Maybe it's just me but I can't believe it would be that big a deal to be asked to play my club. There are so many ways to handle it: ignore all requests with the delete button; only accept requests from people I "know; accept every request I could fit in my schedule (they're paying, I like playing golf, I like meeting new golfers); and any number of others. But, clearly there are people that feel this is a problem. It's better to call people out specifically than make a general statement as the offenders never realize it's them. I've been a part of my family's business for almost 15 years. If there is one thing that I've seen happen over and over is that when you have a problem employee you can never be too direct (always privately ad never in front of other employees) about the issue with them. Even when you tell them their job is on the line if the behavior doesn't change, then the behavior doesn't change and you fire them, they are always surprised. Basically, I've found people never really see their faults. So, for all of you coming on here and making blanket statements that there is access whoring and it really bothers you, I don't see you doing anything that actually solve the problem. The offenders don't know it's them. Nor do others on here who learn who the offenders are and what is offensive. Is posting that you are coming to an area and want to play with anyone access whoring? When I've done that I'm just looking to meet people on the site and don't care where we play. I'd rather play with people from this site at a public course than random people at a public course.

I suggested this on another thread (and someone joked about it above) but I think there should be an access whore thread/link/whatever. Those who are willing to host and have no qualms about it should let it be known on that thread. Make it a condition of membership here that if people access whore to someone outside of that thread they get one warning and then boot them on the second. This protects the people that don't want to be asked, makes it known who would love to host if you just asked them, and it makes it much clearer for someone who might be labeled an access whore who doesn't want to be labeled that way.

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #108 on: August 12, 2010, 06:58:07 AM »
Jeff F,

"Do they teach grammar in Scotland?  No offense, ..........."

I take offense. I had an excellent education in Scotland.

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #109 on: August 12, 2010, 09:09:25 AM »
As Yogi Berra said..."Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded".

Sort of sums up the angst among Jeff and many others.

I bet there are more (quantity) quality threads per week here than in the past, it's just that they are a lower percentage of the total due to the increased volume of threads per week.

For those interested, you just have to look.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #110 on: August 12, 2010, 10:55:50 AM »
Shiv,

NO.  Old Tom would have looked at it and said. "Aye, Get that friggin broomhandle off my course boy.  If it's sweepin you're after, my shop be needin a good dust-up."   8)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 11:14:51 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #111 on: August 12, 2010, 11:12:19 AM »

Jud

You may well be spot on, but then again you could be expressing nothing but B.S. Perhaps you can answer Scotts question as you seem to have more inside information.

Melvyn

John Moore II

Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #112 on: August 12, 2010, 11:16:10 AM »
Melvyn, I invite you to answer my question from post #100:

How is it that you know how Old Tom would feel about 21st century technological advances and how did Old Tom, during his lifetime, demonstrate the feelings you are attributing to him?

Scott:  that is an interesting question - one I'd like Melvyn to take a stab at answering.  I believe that since the time game was first invented, golfers have craved better B&I.  I believe that Old Tom probably marketed the fact that he built better B&I.  When you've got the goods, it's not only smart business, but also human nature to say so.  So I don't automatically believe this stuff about how the ODGs would be appauled by today's technology.  Perhaps the length aspect would bother them, but not necessarily the rest of it.

For example, personally, I believe that if somebody had invented the Long Putter back in Old Tom's time, and Old Tom saw him using it to putt, Old Tom would have come over to that fellow and said "Sir, may I try that?" and if Old Tom started making everything he looked at with it, it'd have gone in Old Tom's bag immediately!!  

Melvyn, if you disagree, fire away...

If allowed to mark his ball with a 10 pence piece, do you think Old Tom would have put the seam of his feathery down in such a way as to point the direction towards the hole??  ;D ;D

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #113 on: August 12, 2010, 11:16:42 AM »
I'm inclined to believe Old Tom may have had a friendlier attitude towards technology than many might think.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't his split with Robertson due to Tom's seeing the Gutta as the future of golf, while his mentor condemned the new-fangled ball as a  menace.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #114 on: August 12, 2010, 11:20:54 AM »
I now have an Access Whored Envy (i.e. I don't belong to a nice enough club to be access whored constantly...)

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #115 on: August 12, 2010, 11:21:17 AM »
From wikipedia:

"The relationship between Robertson and Morris soured when the guttie ball was introduced (see golf ball - history). Robertson caught Morris playing with a guttie, and fired him on the spot. Robertson attempted to suppress the popularity of the new and cheaper ball which spelt the end of his own 100-year-old business making the featherie ball. Morris accepted the march of progress and felt obliged to leave Robertson and set up his own workshop. Morris moved to Prestwick in 1851, on the west coast of Scotland, to build a new golf course, where he served as professional and greenkeeper. The guttie ball revolutionised golf and Robertson's featherie business did indeed collapse, although Robertson quickly moved to manufacture the guttie, which was made from liquid rubber found in Malaysia."

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #116 on: August 12, 2010, 11:23:14 AM »
From wikipedia:

"The relationship between Robertson and Morris soured when the guttie ball was introduced (see golf ball - history). Robertson caught Morris playing with a guttie, and fired him on the spot. Robertson attempted to suppress the popularity of the new and cheaper ball which spelt the end of his own 100-year-old business making the featherie ball. Morris accepted the march of progress and felt obliged to leave Robertson and set up his own workshop. Morris moved to Prestwick in 1851, on the west coast of Scotland, to build a new golf course, where he served as professional and greenkeeper. The guttie ball revolutionised golf and Robertson's featherie business did indeed collapse, although Robertson quickly moved to manufacture the guttie, which was made from liquid rubber found in Malaysia."

Shocking.  This is a paradigm shift.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #117 on: August 12, 2010, 11:24:38 AM »
The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.  But there are two other issues to which Jeff alluded that constitute a greater threat, because, if the remain unchecked, they will cause more good people to leave the site.

The first is the use of the site to grind an axe against somebody that you have an architectural "argument" with.  I'm a lawyer by education and now I'm a judge, so I'm used to argument.  We argue about stuff every day.  Sometimes it gets heated.  Sometimes you say things you wish you hadn't.  But it is overwhelmingly true that we tend to adhere to Shakespeare's famous line about lawyers that they strive mightily but eat and drink as friends.  Some of these Merion arguments make it impossible for the latter to occur.  And that, to me, has a corrosive effect upon the fraternity.

The second is MHM and everything he stands for.  The basic business model is to preach, prescribe and proscribe.  Stir the pot.  Tell people what they should do.  And remind everybody periodically of the "weight" that his opinions have because of his lineage.  And then when people dare to disagree or take a shot at his holiness, he claims that the poster had "misread" or "misunderstood" his post.  And if it's late enough at night, he throws in some nice ad hominem attacks.  Finally, follow it up with the "I'm a victim" b.s.

In a word, Mr. Morrow, you are poison to nice civilized conversation in these parts.  Your preaching from your self-anointed bully pulpit leaves you looking like nothing more than a feckless bully.  You've ruined more days than "made" days around here.  You have a coterie of defenders who must have some sway because you have not been heretofore banished, but it would make a lot of people's days if you would take up your repeated threat to leave our company and I doubt that many would miss your contributions.  If golf's last frontier is in the mind, I invite you to have unlimited inner dialogue and keep your poisonous opinions to yourself.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #118 on: August 12, 2010, 11:51:02 AM »
If allowed to mark his ball with a 10 pence piece, do you think Old Tom would have put the seam of his feathery down in such a way as to point the direction towards the hole??  ;D ;D

Now, THERE is the question that matters.  And the answer, of course, is:  HELL NO!

Old Tom being old would have used old money.  Lets call it a shilling marker.  As an aside, what sort of culture came up with 20 shillings to the pound when a shilling was 12 pennies?  It gets worse, much worse....

http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/moneyold.htm

Terry

Where is all this transparent access whoring going on?  I hear about it all the time, but never see it much. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 11:53:07 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #119 on: August 12, 2010, 11:55:48 AM »
The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.  


Examples?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

John Moore II

Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #120 on: August 12, 2010, 12:11:40 PM »
The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.  


Examples?
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44989.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42431.msg955717/#msg955717
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43951.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43973.0/

And all those by the same person; shamefully, one of those threads I thought was ok and even on topic.

And honestly, I hope none of my posts about "Golf courses in XX City" have come off as trying to get any access. That has never been my intention. My sole intention on those threads was to get input on what public courses were the best places to see while I was there.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 12:16:41 PM by John K. Moore »

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #121 on: August 12, 2010, 12:23:07 PM »
John,

Touche.  The idiots guide to getting the look is the same advice once given to young children at the adult's table:

Don't speak unless spoken to

Best way to get the look is by making friends who love golf and golf courses, not because you're looking for a handout of a bedpost notch but because you genuinely enjoy same. 

Best way to lose friends who love golf and golf courses: blatently asking for access to a Top 100 course

Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jim Briggs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #122 on: August 12, 2010, 12:35:02 PM »
John,

One of the examples you are giving there is a question on deals relating to National Memberships.  Interpretations of other posts notwithstanding, how is that access whoring?  I just recently joined as a National Member a top 100 modern, the GM and Head Pro of which responded in that thread.  I'd hate to think if I or another had started a similar thread that I/we would get branded an access whore.

I suppose I don't see the access whore issue as being as rampant as suggested.  Perhaps because it is happening more via e-mail and PM's as opposed to via the public threads.  I have no reason to doubt Mr. Lavin statements, so it must be a lot of (attempted) back channel communications.  I just don't see it jumping out at me from the threads.

You've highlighted 1 out of 1500, and frankly I don't even take all the examples from that one to be on topic.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 12:37:28 PM by Jim Briggs »

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #123 on: August 12, 2010, 12:37:27 PM »
The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.  


Examples?

I'll give you a very common AW approach.  A poster who never adds anything of any significance in any of his posts contacts a panel member whom he has discovered is a member of an exclusive Long Island club and asks about getting on to play and adds that he's "a Golfweek rater" and that he'll "talk the club up" on gca.com.  This sort of stuff goes on all the time.  Then there are the threads that ask for any information about "XXX Country Club", with no indication early in the thread or later on in the thread that the poster has an active interest in the architectural bona fides of the place, he's merely waiting for a member or somebody who knows a member who will schedule a round for him while he's "passing through on business".  Generally speaking, the AW has nothing to provide "in kind" and does precious little for the site other than to make himself available for an invitation to a private club.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Has GCA.com jumped the shark?
« Reply #124 on: August 12, 2010, 12:41:00 PM »

Time and time again I make it clear that it’s my opinion that I am voicing on this site, a DG site on the internet.

I have also stated time and again that I have no authority or legal standing in the R&A or any legal body so no way of changing any rules, so why are you so scared about my opinions or is it the tone in which you believe I submit my posts? I can’t tell people what to do, and anyway who would listen to me if I even tried. I am accused of mentioning family members on nearly every post that not true and easily proven by checking my posts. 

I have no power, very little influence so just what is your problem. Is what I am say hitting some nerve or making you feel guilty, I have no idea but I know one thing that is if you are indeed a Judge Terry then God help anyone who does not agree with you – you sound like our old Judge Jefferies who condemn men to the gallows for nearly any reason.

I see a witch hunt here, worst still I see a nasty form of censorship falling upon this site. You and your Merry Men (Men in Black) trying to rule by verbal intimidation. Yet why are you scared of a little now isolated Scotsman, what is it really that frightens you a non-existent tone you feel you are detecting.

If Ran or all the others want me to leave I will willing do so, in fact if Jeff had not dragged me back by this topic I would have quietly left. Don’t believe me ask Mac, George and a few others. But I will not be driven out by bigots like you and Jeff. So thanks to this post I am staying to fight your type of nasty bullying censorship.

The silent majority can make a stand if they wish or keep quiet until you (Men in Black) decide to attack another Member.

Look in the mirror guys it’s you with the poisonous attitudes and opinions, it’s you guys who want me silenced and off this site. Who really are the bullies you lot or me.

As for golf, yes I play the traditional game, I keep faith by walking and thinking for myself, I play courses that offer a challenge as I believe Golf requires a commitment to play it in its honest form.

Do your worst Jeff, Terry and anyone else who would be happy to see me leave.

Melvyn

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