Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?

[PThomas]

And that's the best analogy I've come across lately for how to put a golf course together. 
To get the perfect variety of 18 holes, you need some quieter notes, and there are moments where you ought to let one instrument or one hazard shine; and there are others where you throw the whole band at it. 
But there are way too many architects who come out with a big band of guys who play loud and over the top of one another, to where you can't even tell how good each of the players really is.

That's an interesting analogy, but, I'm unclear as to how you go about conceptualizing and executing the process when it comes to GCA.

I'm fairly certain that you're not saying that you deliberately "dumb down" holes to further accentuate the better ones.

I had always perceived that you tried to find the best 18 holes available, sort of like the "Constellation" routing at Sand Hills, where about 120 potential holes were distilled down to 18 solid holes.

Is it unreasonable to conclude that on most sites that, "not all holes will be created equal" due to the site's constraints ?

That the process and almost every site produces variety, not just in the configuration of the holes, but in the quality of the holes as well ?

Having said all this, I would ask you this question.
At Pacific Dunes, what holes do you consider "weak" or lessor holes to the "outstanding" holes ? 
And, what holes do you consider the outstanding holes ?

these thoughts get at a post i started recently about "flow " of  a golf course...thx guys for your thoughts

[Tom_Doak]

Henry E:

I am quite tempted to change the title of this thread to "Neil Young Used to Live in My Basement" but somebody would conclude I was nuts before they ever got to your post!

"In fact, if it was so blatant that golfers were conscious of it, it wouldn't be nearly as good."

Bingo! (if I can be so presumptuous).  Really spot on.

Keeping with the music analogies, Tom - do you remember as a kid the Charlie Brown specials, the Christmas special? Well, the composer of (and piano player on) those wonderful scores was Vince Guaraldi. Now, he was a jazz man for a long time, and a purist at that -- but none of the other jazz purists begrudged him his enormous popular success wtih the Charlie Brown stuff because they recognized a genius at work - i.e. the genius lay in his ability to make engaging, accessible, top-flight and popular music while at the same time honouring the great principles (and chord progressions and inventiveness) of the best of then-modern jazz; more specifically, the genius lay in Guaraldi's ability to hide the mechanics and structures of his jazz roots so that they were there and not there at the same time, there (for most people) only subliminally.

Peter  

Peter:

Honestly, I don't even think about this subject that often while I'm out at work -- for example, I never sat down and thought about the flow of Ballyneal before I wrote what I did for Patrick earlier in this thread.  I am conscious that it has to happen, but for the most part I do it subconsciously.

The one time I really thought about it was in the routing for Pacific Dunes.  Mike Keiser and I had talked quite a bit about the flow of certain other courses we'd seen, and how they differed, and the last routing for the course put all of that together really well, which was one reason he liked the routing instantly even though it broke so many norms of golf course design.  Still, I had to hold everybody back a bit when building the last few holes [particularly #12, and to a lesser degree #15] as part of my balancing act, even though by that point Mike was encouraging us to pull out all the stops.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks much, Tom, for those details.

I don't know your art-craft at all, and barely know the art and craft of jazz. But there is a book by a (veteran) jazz musician for (inexperienced) jazz musicians called "Effortless Mastery" that I think is quite good.  And most of it is devoted to the theory and practice of making the conscious unconscious, i.e. of getting to the place where the technique and theory necessary to play good jazz reside in the player's subconscious....which is the only way to the truly play

Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

I agree with you here, most people are not conscious of this sort of stuff. 
Actually, they are not conscious of a lot of the things we've been concentrating on lately. 
But what we have been trying to do is to minimize the distractions and the "background noise" of the golf course so that you can stay in a flow and enjoy all the good stuff.

Tom Doak,

Do you feel that that's because golfers tend to focus on their game, their shots and their score during a round ?

That the game, inherently creates an environment of "narrowed or limited vision" that doesn't extend beyond the golfer ?

Most golfers I know NEVER see what doesn't affect them as they play a hole/shot.
Very few observe and absorb GCA "globally" as they navigate their way around a golf course.

An example might be the play of the 2nd hole at Pine Valley.
A friend of mine, playing with me at PV for the first time, hit a good drive, good second shot to a back left pin, and made par.

On the 3rd tee, when I asked him what he thought of the green, he said, it was OK.
He never saw the swail, he never saw the various hole locations and potential putts he could have.
He only saw the slightly uphill 20 footer he had.

Then, when I asked him what he thought of the pot bunkers in the rough, he said, "Where" ?

He was so absorbed in his game that he never saw anything that wasn't directly related to the shot/s he was playing..

I've seen this habit in very good players and hackers so it's not limited to one sector.

The one feature that seems to break that mold or habit is a substantive water hazard, like a pond flanking or fronting a green or fairway.
For some reason, every golfer sees it.
In fact, if it was so blatant that golfers were conscious of it, it wouldn't be nearly as good.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

There are many golfers who are unobservant of the courses they're playing.  I agree that it's just as true for all classes of golfers, except that the average player probably sees a bit more of the hole because he sees a lot more of the trouble.

A few years back, we had a four-ball at Rustic Canyon -- Jim Urbina, Eric Iverson, myself, and one of our interns at the time, Sara Mess.  We didn't talk much about the course while playing, but after we finished we had a three-hour drive out to Palm Desert, and we talked about it the whole way.  After discussing the first couple of holes Sara stopped us to ask how we had noticed what was happening on the other side of the fairway from where we had all hit it; and we all said it was just second nature to us now to look for that stuff while we played.  I suspect it's one of the reasons none of us are as good at golf as we used to be.  But we ARE better at architecture.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

You're interested/fascinated by GCA because that's your passion, your chosen field, thus, your powers of observation are extremely keen.

Few golfers extend their view of a golf course beyond their immediate play.
That's not a knock on them, I just think it's an inherent element of the game, focusing on that which confronts you and ignoring that which doesn't.

I think that those who are overly concentrating on scoring probably suffer the narrowest vision.

I often wonder, does the phrase, "ignorance is bliss" benefit the golfer ?
Is he better off NOT knowing the perils of the hole, focusing instead on what he sees with his limited vision ?

I know TEPaul likes to "walk" a golf course as opposed to playing it, but, can't one drink in all there is while at the same time playing a hole ?

Why does one process have to exclude the other ?

[Mike Hamilton]

I know TEPaul likes to "walk" a golf course as opposed to playing it, but, can't one drink in all there is while at the same time playing a hole ?

Why does one process have to exclude the other ?

IMO one process excludes the other because the analogy is a bit off from the start.  I would believe (although I have not done it) that a GCA's role in the art is that of the composer (Tom Doak as Bach) who has to understand all the instruments and every thread of the music and also creates at whatever pace is required.

Whereas I have always believed that playing music is more similar to playing golf, or any other sport .  The level of short term concentration is much higher but much more internally focused.  I think both athletes and musicians also feel moments where they are in the groove and the playing is unconscious; and moments where it all becomes a struggle.  Golf IS different than say basketball or competitive cycling (for example) in that it CAN provide more time for reflection; but for one whose sole goal is score, I'm sure that the focus tends to be pretty unrelenting.

Finally I'm guessing a GCA playing golf and a composer playing an instrument both tend to see or hear more of the big picture than their playing peers.

[Michael Ryan]

Patrick,

The following quote made me think of one personal experience:

"I often wonder, does the phrase, "ignorance is bliss" benefit the golfer ?
Is he better off NOT knowing the perils of the hole, focusing instead on what he sees with his limited vision ?"

I have had the pleasure of playing Pine Valley three times.  I can assure you, that my approach shot into the first green during my first round was hit with much less fear than my following two trips.  My ignorance to the perils of missed shot in three directions (left, long, and right) was certainly "blissful"

Mike

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom it is wild you would pick Lyle of all the guys in the world. A former Gov of La I am friends with and served under was friends with Lyle and had him over on a regular basis to play. This Gov was was not typical of a politician in that he was extremely bright and deep. Hmmm He went to Harvard and you Cornel Hmmm again. I too like Lyle.

[Tom_Doak]

So Lyle Lovett actually plays golf?  Funny, he didn't really seem like the type, though I know that many musicians find it the perfect way to kill the daylight hours between concerts.

If he's back to Traverse City next summer I know where he can get a game.

[Tom Yost]

Is Francine Reed still touring/performing with Lovett?  She can belt out a mean blues.

I first "discovered" her singing in local Phoenix jazz clubs back in the early 80's.  Then Lyle discovered her.  She appears on many of his records and is still part of his large band as far as I know.   I really should go see them sometime.

[John Kirk]

Before I let this get away, here is my friend Marta Ulvaeus discussing her long love affair with jazz.  She is a disk jockey on KCSB, the UC Santa Barbara radio station, and a serious music student:

“I think terms like ‘avant-garde’ are limiting,” said Marta Ulvaeus, who developed the first version of Roots to the Source  in 1983 in Davis and helms it still today. “The artists I love are so inside they’re outside, or they’re so outside they’re inside. I like ensemble playing. I like musicians who really listen to each other, when there’s a chemistry that happens. I’m interested in unusual arrangements and instrumentation. I love to play adventurous music, though I know a lot of people think, ‘I can’t stand this stuff!’ But in the music I play, there’s always something it returns to. As difficult as it might seem, there’s always, say, a certain chord you can hang with.”

The music she listens to is quite challenging and different.  She is very deep into this subject.  I felt her thoughts fit into the thread nicely.

[Anthony Gray]

  What was his hair like?

  Anthony

[John Kirk]

Tom it is wild you would pick Lyle of all the guys in the world. A former Gov of La I am friends with and served under was friends with Lyle and had him over on a regular basis to play. This Gov was was not typical of a politician in that he was extremely bright and deep. Hmmm He went to Harvard and you Cornel Hmmm again. I too like Lyle.

Gee Tiger,

Do you think you could grant me access to Lyle Lovett?

[John Kirk]

Jud

I have seen Neil during six separate tours starting with Rust Never Sleeps at Pine Knob with Crazy Horse in 1978 and most recently in 2003 at Hammersmith in London solo.  I have missed a few opportunities to see Neil because of the venue choice, most recently this past summer at the Isle of Wight Festival.  I am not interested in seeing Neil (or anybody else) at a big venue - those days are over for me.  Mind you, the best show I saw Neil play was at Finsbury Park in London with Crazy Horse and there were more than a few dozen folks present.  

Ciao

Neil used to live in our basement.  He practiced there with his band as well.  My brother, sister and I would sit on the stairs and listen to them bang out really loud music.  My mom was a fan and wanted to help them get established.  She bought him his first guitar and lent them her car to stuff all their crap in and take down to Motown for recording or some such.  The US customs called up my dad once, because they thought the car was stolen.  Anyway, he lived with us because his father kicked him out and within a year, my father kicked him out as well.  Too many wacky tobacco fumes emanating from the downstairs.  I've seen him a few times since.  Last time was a couple of years ago at a Leaf hockey game.  He always passes on his regards to my mom.  He never asks about dad.

Gee Henry,

Do you think you can arrange access to Neil Young?  Wow; that would be cool.


(Just so everybody understands, I'm kidding.)

[rboyce]

Someone notify me if the Avett Brothers ever design a golf course. They're in Myrtle from tomorrow thru Sat.

[Bob_Huntley]

Some eighteen months ago, my wife cajoled me into going to the renovated State Theater in Monterey to a Lyle Lovett concert. I was quite ignorant of his music but did know of his short lived marriage to you know who. I had a ball, and what struck me most was his relationship with his band members, it semed like a love fest. As enjoyable as Lyle et al was, I was blown away by his opening artist, K.D. Lang singing "Hallelujah"

Bob

[Dan Kelly]

One of the lesser-known benefits of living in Traverse City is the Interlochen Music Camp, a few miles south of town.  It's one of the best music camps in the country, with many successful grads in the business, and as a result, their summer concert series attracts a great variety of stellar musicians from all genres.

One who comes nearly every year is Lyle Lovett, whom I went to see with my wife for the third year in a row last night.  He brought his 15-piece band with him, as usual, though he didn't have the gospel choir this time, as he did last year.

So why would I mention that?  Because Lyle Lovett puts together his band the way I've always tried to do it, and the way Bill Coore does it.  [We even have a couple of guys in our employ who could get up there on stage and play, though Jeff Bradley would probably fit in with Lyle's band better than Brian Slawnik would.]  He's got a bunch of guys who are great at what they do ... there's someone who can kick ass on banjo, bass, bongos, cello, drums, piano, other vocalists, and of course multiple guitar players ... and who all respect each other's abilities.  They all have to spend a lot of time on the road, and they all clearly love what they do.  And Lyle lets them play, because he knows that's what the audience came to hear.

At the same time, over the course of a concert, there is a tremendous variety of stuff.  If I had to guess, I'd guess they played about 18 songs last night.  They started off slowly with only four pieces [bass, cello, violin, and Lyle on guitar], and then brought in a few more midway through the second or third song.  They went loud and picked up the tempo for a while, including three backup singers from L.A.  Then he sent nearly everyone off, and did a three-part harmony bluegrass section for 3-4 songs, before calling back the full band to close the show.  Along the way, every single one of the band members did a solo or a duet where they were the focus ... the cellist blew everyone away in the encore.

And that's the best analogy I've come across lately for how to put a golf course together.  To get the perfect variety of 18 holes, you need some quieter notes, and there are moments where you ought to let one instrument or one hazard shine; and there are others where you throw the whole band at it.  But there are way too many architects who come out with a big band of guys who play loud and over the top of one another, to where you can't even tell how good each of the players really is.

I am sure that others have tried to make this same point here using jazz or classical music as examples; I'm a bit thick on the subject of music so I probably just didn't understand.  But as long as Lyle Lovett keeps coming back to Interlochen, I'll have at least one reminder a year, and my wife will be a little less bummed the next time I have to go away for a few days.

Tom --

The other day, I sent a note to one of our reporters -- who'd written a wonderful piece, for the Sunday paper, about her mother and father and World War II (etc.), on the anniversary of V-J Day. (You can read it at http://www.twincities.com/ci_15781132?I.) The note said something like: If we had more pieces like that, more often, no one would be worried about our future. (By "our future," I meant: the future of daily newspapers, generally.)

And now I'll say: If gca.com had more posts (and threads) like this one, more often, no one would be worried about our having "jumped the shark."

Bob Crosby is right: There's a book waiting to be written about the intersection of golf and music. Let's hope a really, really good writer chooses to write it -- because in any lesser hands, it will be dreadful.

Thanks.

Dan

P.S. Vagrant thought: When did the expression "jump the shark" jump the shark?

P.P.S. Vagrant thought II: Well, sure, she *says* she's bummed....

P.P.P.S. Vagrant thought III: There are two types of people in this world: Those who can be teased, and those who can't. Which type is Tom Doak?

P.P.P.P.S. Vagrant thought IV (as long as I'm spewing vagrant thoughts): Why doesn't someone do something about the typography of this Discussion Group? The posts' font is awful -- hard on the eyes. It gets worse, if that's possible, when you Zoom In on it. The font for quoted passages is tiny and abysmal -- almost unreadable. If the typography of this DG were a golf course, it'd get a Doak Minus-1: Avoid at all costs! Which is what I do most of the time, and have since the DG was "redesigned." (Granted, my avoidance might be a good thing -- for everyone concerned!)

[Jud_T]

Haven't read all the entries but I just had a thought re-the Jazz analogy:

From the cheap seats it seems to me that great GCA is more like the Duke Ellington Orchestra (or perhaps Lyle Lovett).  Excellent score by a brilliant leader and talented sidemen are allowed to showcase their individuality but in limited bursts and only whilst staying within the context of the time signiture, key and melodic chord changes as set out by the leader.  This as opposed to a more free-jazz setting, where the key may be transient (Ornett Coleman) and there are passages where multiple players are improvising at once, yet responding to the movements of the others/group (mid to late Cecil Taylor, Art Ensemble of Chicago, etc.)...Thoughts?

[Tom_Doak]

Jud:

My thought, unfortunately, is that when people get talking about jazz it seems so esoteric to an outsider like me that my eyes completely glaze over.  [You know, just as most people get when you start talking about golf course architecture.]

I was hoping that using Lyle Lovett as an example it would be a little more open to general discourse.

Incidentally, the father of one of my associates (Eric Iverson) was fairly well-known in jazz circles, I guess.  Eric grew up listening to his dad play with some of the legends of the genre.

[Mike Tanner]

One of the most fascinating posts I've read here in a while. Thanks, Tom, for drawing attention to the role of collaboration in what you do by comparing it to the interplay of Lyle Lovett's amazing big band. I've only played one of your courses and only seen one LL show, but I sure enjoyed both experiences.

[Jud_T]

Kelly,

Check out Mystery Train by Greil Marcus....

[Peter Pallotta]

There are so many facets to the analogy. One is that much of the great work in both jazz and gca was created long before there were schools dedicated to teaching those arts.  In New Orleans in the early 1900s,  there was not much love between black musicians and Creole musicians; the latter tended to be schooled musicians, often classically trained, and they tended to look down their noses at blacks like Louis Armstrong, who  learned and played basically by ear, and who took whatever their predecessors could teach them and moved on -- or not -- from there.  And even after Louis made the revolutionary Hot Five and Hot Seven recordings in the mid-to-late 1920s, the attitude persisted. While his new found acclaim got him passage from Chicago to New York and a seat in Fletcher Henderson's then-famous big band (an all black band playing to New York's white society set), there are many stories of the Henderson band-members making fun of the 'country bumpkin'.  (There is an oft-told story about Louis trying to read one of Henderson's scores, sight-reading the music for the first time: when he and the band got to a section marked pp for pianissimo, Louis started playing as loud as he could, and when Fletcher stopped them and asked why Louis was playing the pianissimo so loudly, Louis replied "I thought pp stood for pound it plenty".) The mocking stopped after a short while, when the band realized Louis' genius and inventiveness as a soloist and improviser, but my point is that Louis Armstrong wasn't consciously thinking about "creating the language pf jazz" (as he is often credited, probably rightly, with doing) -- he was playing what he'd heard on the streets and in the nightclubs and then transmuted through his own personal talent and taste. It took teachers and critics of a later generation to write down and explain and codify what he'd been doing for so long.  I think this partly explains why many of Armstrong's best solos sound as fresh and appealing today -- even after 90 years -- as they must have back then, while so many of those well trained and well intentioned musicians who try to pay tribute to his music sound so forced and even corny.

Peter  

PS - I remember reading about a study that a couple of jazz egg-heads did in the early 1950s. They studied a hundred of the best jazz solos up to that point, and came to the conclusion that a great solo tended to have musical choices (note and rhythmic selections) that were 50% expected and 50% surprising.  Now imagine a nerd like me taking that information and trying to play a solo while all the time thinking "I must make a surprising choice here, followed by a conventional one...no, wait - two suprising choices and then two conventional ones....".  What a recipe -- or, in gca terms, rule -- for disaster, eh?

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