Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?

[William_G]

Love the analogy, like golf is the analogy of life.

Also the posts regarding #18 at Pacific are right on! It is all you want from the orchestra and posiibly more depending on the hole position, lol.

[John Kirk]

2) This one involves Frank Sinatra again. Years later, after pianist Teddy Wilson had left the Goodman band and been on his own for a long time, he had a long-standing gig in one of the smarter New York nightclubs, playing as a solo act. Of course, since he was Teddy Wilson and this was New York, any and all of the great pop singers of the day would come in and listen to him when they were in town, and most would get up and sing a few songs with him. A reporter once asked Teddy who the best singer of all was in his opinion, and Teddy said "Frank Sinatra". The reporter asked why, expecting to hear technical talk about Frank's phrasing or breath-control, or his great taste/choice of material or his swagger or his tone, but instead Teddy said it was "Because he really loves to sing".  Think about that - Teddy wasn't talking about amateurs or dillettantes, he was talking about the best and most talented pop and jazz singers of his era, and about the ones who'd worked hard for years and years to achieve and maintain their level of success. And yet, even among them, Teddy didn't find many who loved to sing.    

Oooooo Teddy Wilson.  Peter, we must talk more.


I've seen several big time artists, such as Cher, Neil Diamond and Jimmy Buffett, play with large bands, but each artist only gets a few bars to display his/her virtuosity.  The shows are invariably less interesting than the bandleaders who allow their band members to shine.  Among my favorite live acts through the years are Alison Krauss & Union Station, Los Lobos and Van Morrison.

[Pete_Pittock]

Thanks for the uplift. While I was at Ballyneal a few years ago Elgar's Enigma Variations kept resonating with me. But that only amounted to 14 holes.

[Colin Macqueen]

What a terrific thread, excellent analogy and fascinating responses!  The analogy is so intriguing. I thoroughly enjoy it when a connection is made between two entities which at first glance would seem well separated but in fact can be revealed to have a great deal in common. To think of a golf hole as a movement in classical music or one of the numbers in a set of pieces in a performance is, to my mind, very satisfying. The various parts coming together in harmony. I am a tragic, albeit a somewhat uninformed one, and this sort of discussion thrills me as it reinforces my delusion (?!) that golf, golf architecture and golf courses are as much artistry as painting, literature and music.

I am not really adding to this thread other than being effusive and enthusiastic as the responses already posted reflect my thoughts about it.

Once again guys, well done, good thoughtful writing and opinions.

Cheers Colin

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

I am so happy that you think about your craft in this fashion.  Thanks for the post, Herr Conductor.

John:

I am less enamored with the "conductor" comparison.  I've heard of orchestra conductors who rule with an iron fist, and try to keep the players in line.  That's not what Lyle Lovett appears to be doing.  But perhaps it is just a question of finding talented team players who keep themselves in line. 

[Peter Pallotta]

When Lester Young played with small back-up combos (of usually younger and admiring musicians), he was known for giving each of those sidemen plenty of room to solo, i.e. for not being selfish or hogging all the available 'space'.  When asked why, Young - who sometimes referred to himself in the 3rd person, and by his nick-name Prez -- said "I like to give the kiddies space to play and tire themselves out, that way when the Prez is playing the kiddies don't step all over his toes".

John K, Shel - I'd love to hang out one day with you guys and chat and golf. I can tell you right now, though, that you'd both run circles around me when it comes to talking about music or golf. The sum total of all my knowledge about both has been used up already, here.

And now, what a good time to quote some of the lyrics of that great Dave Frishberg tune "I Want to be a Sideman":

I want to be a sideman
Just an ordinary sideman
A go along for the ride man
Responsibility free

I want to play while the people dance
I wanna press my own coat and pants
I wanna ask for an advnace
I wanna be a sideman

I want to sleep in the afternoons
And let the leader call all the tunes
I wanna be young
I wanna have fun
I want to be a sideman

I wanna work for a superstar
I wanna hang in the hotel bar
I wanna be young
I wanna have fun
I want to be a sideman

[Jud_T]

PP,

Get your hands on the Mosaic Teddy Wilson Box Set....

[Don_Mahaffey]

Cool thread.

It seems like sometimes architects forget they are building a course, not just holes. In the effort to make every hole great (not possible) they over do it.
I believe having the courage to restrain yourself in golf design is just as important as knowing when to take a chance. Nuzzo will attest that in the building of Wolf Point often I was the one to pull him away, saying it’s as good as it can be, its time to stop.
The quite moments on the course, the subtle movements, those aren't what end up on the magazine covers or 10 page threads on GCA. But they are the difference between great and good for me. We live in an era of "in your face" architecture but sometimes we need a soft instrumental with every note hit perfectly and clean. When that happens, and especially when it’s plugged in the proper sequence, then that song becomes a key part of a successful show.

[John Kirk]

Tom,

I am so happy that you think about your craft in this fashion.  Thanks for the post, Herr Conductor.

John:

I am less enamored with the "conductor" comparison.  I've heard of orchestra conductors who rule with an iron fist, and try to keep the players in line.  That's not what Lyle Lovett appears to be doing.  But perhaps it is just a question of finding talented team players who keep themselves in line. 

Yes, understood.  I hope there's no animosity as a result.

Van Morrison will sometimes call out or point to his musicians to indicate who will give the next solo.  Jazz musicians perform under a looser set of rules, but there some coordination must exist.  Classical orchestras seem to take strict direction from their conductors, with no apparent room for improvisation.  Lots of types of bandleaders.

By the way, Benny Goodman was a notoriously difficult taskmaster, who used to belittle lesser players who made mistakes.  He was essentially excluded from late night jam sessions which spawned the be-bop jazz movement, where players wanted to move beyond the boundaries of the swing jazz movement.

I enjoy the analogies in music and sports.  Allowing the "players" to improvise in different combinations seems a great way to create the best music and derive the most enjoyment from the experience.

[George Pazin]

I could go on, but I think you're getting the picture.  Sometimes the length and challenge of the hole (or just the orientation) is what makes it memorable; sometimes the view overwhelms everything, so the architecture becomes simpler; and sometimes (as on holes 5 and 7) you amp up the features to command the player's attention, the same way a band leader would let one of his musicians take center stage for a bit.  That's not dumbing it down.

Kinda takes the right type of golfer to really appreciate it, though, don't you think? At least consciously. People have become more accustomed to being wowed, get in cart, being wowed, get in cart, and on and on, even if the wow isn't really much of a wow, more of just a sensory overload.

I suspect on a subconscious level, more folks appreciate the ebb and flow.

[SL_Solow]

Peter and John;   I am with you guys.  We have to figure this one out so that we can get together.  As long as we are way off topic. back in the early 80's (I think) I had a client who spent a large part of the winter in a rented vllla in Jamaica.  He woke up one morning to hear someone playing exercises on the clarinet followed by some great playing.  This went on every morning for an extended period.  Finally he asked around and was introduced to his winter neighbor, Benny Goodman, who practiced everyday on his terrace notwithstanding it was more than 40 years since he made his breakthrough.  Another example of a true artist who remained in love with his art form.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jud - thanks much, I just looked that up and it looks great. And (John K too) - in turn, I highly recommend "Charlie Christian and Lester Young, Together".   One day, Goodman brought into the studio Charlie Christian, Lester Young, Count Basie, Cootie Williams and others and they ad-libbed/head-arranged a number of tunes - with all of them playing with abandon because there were no plans to release the results.  Terrific stuff. The rest of the CD have songs that the Goodman sextet (sans Lester) put out.  

Yes, John, BG could be a real hard-ass, and would flash "the Ray" at musicians/music he didn't think up to par. But I forgive him everything: a tough upbringing, mastery of the clarinet, and because I've read that when a musician like Christian was playing exceptionally well, you could see tears coming into Benny's eyes. Appreciation.

Ah - Shel: thank you for sharing that. I can't tell you how fascinated I am by everything BG.  One of 11 children growing up in Chicago, poor, his father having to work in a slaughterhosue to make ends meet, took up the clarinet at 10 and by 14 was playing professionaly, most of his training at Hull House, but then studied as a 12 year olf with the prinicipal clarinettist of the Chicago Symphony, a German who worked with the under priviledged youth because he wanted to give back.  AT his best, a lusty, biting, driving sound full of high drama and exhiliration.

Sorry all for the number of OT posts.

Peter

[RJ_Daley]

Shel, that BG story of practicing on the patio each morning sort of brings to mind the Good Dr.'s reference to living on the 16th hole where one could go out in the morning while having coffee on the patio and fool around the green and pitching around in their pajamas. 

I'm wondering if any of the GCAs or course construction-shapers are actually serious musicians.  Fat Baldy Drummer and Jeff 'Drummer' Bradley already acknolwedged. 

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Not a great guitarist?  Have you ever seen Neil live? Maybe not the most technically proficient, but in terms of Rock'n'roll feeling and intensity, one of the best.  83 all-time on the Rolling Stone list.....The Kingsley Club of guitar players: raw and natural and when you least suspect it, he blows your mind....

Jud

I have seen Neil during six separate tours starting with Rust Never Sleeps at Pine Knob with Crazy Horse in 1978 and most recently in 2003 at Hammersmith in London solo.  I have missed a few opportunities to see Neil because of the venue choice, most recently this past summer at the Isle of Wight Festival.  I am not interested in seeing Neil (or anybody else) at a big venue - those days are over for me.  Mind you, the best show I saw Neil play was at Finsbury Park in London with Crazy Horse and there were more than a few dozen folks present.  

Ciao

[Tom Dunne]

I like this thread, too. Tom, I found a lot of truth to this line--"They often say that the hit songs are not necessarily the ones they most enjoyed writing."--both in terms of my own work and my understanding of others.

Here in Brooklyn there's a now very-popular band called The National. This Times article is long but focuses heavily on how much they struggled with one song on their new album. 80 takes or more for "Lemonworld", but the result is phenomenal--it's so hard to imagine that it almost didn't even make it on the album.   

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/25/magazine/25national-t.html?_r=1

So my question is: What is Renaissance Golf's "Lemonworld"? The hole that just drove everyone crazy, caused squabbles and general annoyance until it was somehow, miraculously, pulled out of mediocrity to become one of the best, or even the best, on the course.

[henrye]

Jud

I have seen Neil during six separate tours starting with Rust Never Sleeps at Pine Knob with Crazy Horse in 1978 and most recently in 2003 at Hammersmith in London solo.  I have missed a few opportunities to see Neil because of the venue choice, most recently this past summer at the Isle of Wight Festival.  I am not interested in seeing Neil (or anybody else) at a big venue - those days are over for me.  Mind you, the best show I saw Neil play was at Finsbury Park in London with Crazy Horse and there were more than a few dozen folks present.  

Ciao

Neil used to live in our basement.  He practiced there with his band as well.  My brother, sister and I would sit on the stairs and listen to them bang out really loud music.  My mom was a fan and wanted to help them get established.  She bought him his first guitar and lent them her car to stuff all their crap in and take down to Motown for recording or some such.  The US customs called up my dad once, because they thought the car was stolen.  Anyway, he lived with us because his father kicked him out and within a year, my father kicked him out as well.  Too many wacky tobacco fumes emanating from the downstairs.  I've seen him a few times since.  Last time was a couple of years ago at a Leaf hockey game.  He always passes on his regards to my mom.  He never asks about dad.

[George Pazin]

Neil used to live in our basement.  He practiced there with his band as well.  My brother, sister and I would sit on the stairs and listen to them bang out really loud music.  My mom was a fan and wanted to help them get established.  She bought him his first guitar and lent them her car to stuff all their crap in and take down to Motown for recording or some such.  The US customs called up my dad once, because they thought the car was stolen.  Anyway, he lived with us because his father kicked him out and within a year, my father kicked him out as well.  Too many wacky tobacco fumes emanating from the downstairs.  I've seen him a few times since.  Last time was a couple of years ago at a Leaf hockey game.  He always passes on his regards to my mom.  He never asks about dad.

Tremendous story, thanks for sharing it.

Never been a fan of NY - like his music just fine, he just always struck me as highly pretentious, one of my most hated personality traits. Maybe I just read him wrong; wouldn't be the first time.

[Chris Shaida]

John K - "Classical orchestras seem to take strict direction from their conductors, with no apparent room for improvisation.  Lots of types of bandleaders."  Also, conductors of classical orchestras--unlike jazz, bluegrass, etc. band leaders--don't actually play an instrument as part of the performance-- maybe that's part of the resistance to the 'conductor' as an analogy?  Perhaps some other GCAs are like 'conductors' (just orchestrate, don't get their hands dirty, aren't part of the action, etc.)?

Ton Dunne - great band! great question!

For all of you jazz fans - might not there also something analagous as regards 'credit' or 'recognition'.  Jazz musicians are famously demanding and insular and value/seek recognition as much from other great musicians as from the 'general public'.  The crediting of a single 'leader' is more a matter of general public convenience and the actual calibration of credit/recognition inside the band and amongst the 'insiders' is much more complex and nuanced.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak, Adam Clayman & John Kirk,

I haven't played Ballyneal, so I can't relate the response to the individual holes,  but I have heard a great deal about it.

Someone whose opinion I respect indicated that it was Tom Doak's best work.

Perhaps next summer I'll make the trip through Denver that includes Balllyneal and other courses in Colorado and Nebraska

[SL_Solow]

Chris; that is a great point.  I am aware of Coore and Crenshaws promotion of "the boys" and Tom Doak's acknowledgement of the contributions of his group.  I can remember in the jazz world the awe that many of his fellow players held for Pepper Adams and the role he played insome great recordings ranging from early Chet Baker to Thad Jones and Mel Lewis.  Yet because of his instrument, the general public never "got it".  Similarly, consider the role of the guitarist Freddie Green in the Basie orchestra.  For my money, no band ever swung better and the rhythm guitar made a real difference but he was never a star.

[George Pazin]

So my question is: What is Renaissance Golf's "Lemonworld"? The hole that just drove everyone crazy, caused squabbles and general annoyance until it was somehow, miraculously, pulled out of mediocrity to become one of the best, or even the best, on the course.

My friend's band experienced the other side of this. The singer wrote a song called Life Imitates Art, but they were never satisfied with it, so they never recorded it on anything. Those of us who were lucky enough to hear it are all bummed it never made it over the hump. Guess I could say the same thing about the band in general.

I tip my hat
to every cat
whose wallet's gone
from flat to fat
  -Rob Bayne, dharma sons (the best band you've never heard of)

[John Kirk]

Tom Doak, Adam Clayman & John Kirk,

I haven't played Ballyneal, so I can't relate the response to the individual holes,  but I have heard a great deal about it.

Someone whose opinion I respect indicated that it was Tom Doak's best work.

Perhaps next summer I'll make the trip through Denver that includes Balllyneal and other courses in Colorado and Nebraska

Yes Patrick,

We must see each other for golf again.  Ballyneal would be a nice place to go.

[JC Jones]

Because you're jealous of his hair?

[Tom_Doak]

I could go on, but I think you're getting the picture.  Sometimes the length and challenge of the hole (or just the orientation) is what makes it memorable; sometimes the view overwhelms everything, so the architecture becomes simpler; and sometimes (as on holes 5 and 7) you amp up the features to command the player's attention, the same way a band leader would let one of his musicians take center stage for a bit.  That's not dumbing it down.

Kinda takes the right type of golfer to really appreciate it, though, don't you think? At least consciously. People have become more accustomed to being wowed, get in cart, being wowed, get in cart, and on and on, even if the wow isn't really much of a wow, more of just a sensory overload.

I suspect on a subconscious level, more folks appreciate the ebb and flow.

George:

I agree with you here, most people are not conscious of this sort of stuff.  Actually, they are not conscious of a lot of the things we've been concentrating on lately.  But what we have been trying to do is to minimize the distractions and the "background noise" of the golf course so that you can stay in a flow and enjoy all the good stuff.

In fact, if it was so blatant that golfers were conscious of it, it wouldn't be nearly as good.

[Peter Pallotta]

"In fact, if it was so blatant that golfers were conscious of it, it wouldn't be nearly as good."

Bingo! (if I can be so presumptuous).  Really spot on.

Keeping with the music analogies, Tom - do you remember as a kid the Charlie Brown specials, the Christmas special? Well, the composer of (and piano player on) those wonderful scores was Vince Guaraldi. Now, he was a jazz man for a long time, and a purist at that -- but none of the other jazz purists begrudged him his enormous popular success wtih the Charlie Brown stuff because they recognized a genius at work - i.e. the genius lay in his ability to make engaging, accessible, top-flight and popular music while at the same time honouring the great principles (and chord progressions and inventiveness) of the best of then-modern jazz; more specifically, the genius lay in Guaraldi's ability to hide the mechanics and structures of his jazz roots so that they were there and not there at the same time, there (for most people) only subliminally.

Peter  

[Tags:]

Tags: