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Chris Shaida

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2010, 02:17:13 PM »
"how much the past lives in us and how what we do today shapes how we will consider our lives later."

That's really well framed.  Isn't answering the question 'how much the past lives in us' one of the fundamental questions an artist/craftsman has to wrestle with?  and aren't (inherited, borrowed, 'stolen') artistic forms which the artistic doesn't 'invent' from scratch--in Lovett's case, chord progressions, song conventions and structures, instrumentation and orchestration, etc; in an architect's case, the number and relative types of holes, the shapes and contours of greens and bunkers, 'templates', etc.-- one of the primary means of answering that question?

Sean_A

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2010, 02:23:15 PM »
While I am fascinated by the concept of comparing/contrasting albums, concerts or even the the making of the music to golf architecture, it pains me that the ulta wishy washy music of Lovett is used as the subject for comparison.  

All this reminds me of Neil Young more or less supporting whatever kind of music the 20 year olds are making because its all a learning curve, but to some degree artists usually reflect their youth in their art.  Neil also said that it isn't the music which is at the peaks and troughs of waves, its the musicians who are.  It seems to me that these same round about trends and fades are particularly present in arcihitecture.  Who knows why fans may or may not embrace certain music, but regardless, he has to make music - often at the expense of friendships or even wives/family.  This is a pretty extreme attitude, but for an average guitar player with a warbly voice he has been around a long time and is still putting out the odd bit of relevant music which resonants across generations.  This might be a fitting way for an architect to forge a career, but then there has always been more room in the music business for oddballs, genius or not, than architecture could ever dream of.  

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Dan Herrmann

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2010, 02:28:23 PM »
Come on, Sean.  Young's concert film "Heart of Gold" was a joyful experience for me.  And that boy can rock - we saw him with CSNY a couple of years ago and he was far and away the star of the show - playing completely different stuff than on the concert film.

Lovett isn't wishy-washy to me.  I find his shows to be very relevant and exciting.  The musicianship was superb; the songwriting sublime.


McCloskey

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2010, 02:31:02 PM »
Tom
Are you saying that the severity at Sebonac was interjected by the collaborating artists?

Tom_Doak

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2010, 02:34:49 PM »
Tom
Are you saying that the severity at Sebonac was interjected by the collaborating artists?

Yes.  The course is hard in all the ways Jack makes it hard [it's long, fairway bunkers are a long way out, small greens], AND hard in all the ways I make it hard [contoured greens, difficult recovery shots, uneven stances].  Plus, it's a windy place.  I was concerned the whole way through that the combination would be too much for most people, but that's the way our client wanted it.  So maybe Michael IS a genius for putting us together.

Steve Lang

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2010, 02:43:22 PM »
 8) ..dang I wanted to see him at Interlochen, completely forgot..  but we played The Black Forest last night during 6 hours of twilight.. I was wondering about the big band associated with it!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tom_Doak

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2010, 02:47:49 PM »
Steve:

Black Forest was built by the Small Band ... me, Gil Hanse, and Mike DeVries.  Which was not a bad band for its time.  I just didn't have the leverage then to bring in a couple of more guys and get it as polished as we do today.

Jud_T

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2010, 03:03:32 PM »
Sean,

Don't slag off Neil Young.  He made better albums for longer than almost anyone you can name.  He only jumped the shark in the past few years.  I'd be happy to play any golf course that had the same intensity and subtlety as "Tonights the Night" or "Rust Never Sleeps".
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tim Bert

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2010, 03:13:51 PM »
The flow of Mr. Lovett's show sounds much like Talking Heads effort in Stop Making Sense. While the music might not be for everyone, you have to appreciate the way the ban builds and morphs throughout. Starts off with David Byrne and an old "jam box" an evolves into a 10-15 person effort by slowly adding an instrument or two throughout. Then right when it gets rocking they scale it back again.

Never been a fan of Lovett's music but it sounds like I migh be a bigger fan of his show than his tunes.

Mike McGuire

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2010, 03:29:47 PM »
My wife is still a bit miffed we missed Lovett at Wisconsin State fair last week.
 We have seen him half a dozen times but she doesn't want to miss one.

Jay Flemma

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2010, 03:42:43 PM »
The flow of Mr. Lovett's show sounds much like Talking Heads effort in Stop Making Sense. While the music might not be for everyone, you have to appreciate the way the ban builds and morphs throughout. Starts off with David Byrne and an old "jam box" an evolves into a 10-15 person effort by slowly adding an instrument or two throughout. Then right when it gets rocking they scale it back again.

Never been a fan of Lovett's music but it sounds like I migh be a bigger fan of his show than his tunes.

Stop Making Sense is one of the all time greats.  Not a Lyle Fan, but happy to see Tom making musical analogies to golf!
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Brad Swanson

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2010, 04:38:24 PM »
I guess in some ways, one might consider Old Macdonald to be like Spinal Tap.  Yes or no?

Brad

Tim Martin

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2010, 04:54:45 PM »
Tom-That is a great analogy and a really interesting way to think about the ebb and flow of a golf course. Does Lyle still sport that crazy hairstyle?

Sean_A

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2010, 06:32:41 PM »
Dan & Jud

I am not sure how any of the statement below can be construed as slagging off Neil.  You won't find many more admiring fans of Neil Young than myself.  Even so, Neil has never been a great guitarist of a great vocalist, but he has always been a great song writer with lyrics which are second to none except for possiblly Tom Waits.  Along with hockey and lager,I have long believed Neil is one of the three greatest Canadian exports.  In untrue GCA.com style I would hate to rank the three - tee hee.

"All this reminds me of Neil Young more or less supporting whatever kind of music the 20 year olds are making because its all a learning curve, but to some degree artists usually reflect their youth in their art.  Neil also said that it isn't the music which is at the peaks and troughs of waves, its the musicians who are.  It seems to me that these same round about trends and fades are particularly present in arcihitecture.  Who knows why fans may or may not embrace certain music, but regardless, he has to make music - often at the expense of friendships or even wives/family.  This is a pretty extreme attitude, but for an average guitar player with a warbly voice he has been around a long time and is still putting out the odd bit of relevant music which resonants across generations.  This might be a fitting way for an architect to forge a career, but then there has always been more room in the music business for oddballs, genius or not, than architecture could ever dream of."  

Dan

Speaking of CS&N - you can see them open for Tom Petty at a lot of venues near you this summer.  Later, through the south, ZZTop takes over as opening act.  Not many guys have the balls to have acts like that open for them.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 06:53:59 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Phil McDade

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2010, 06:40:05 PM »
I guess in some ways, one might consider Old Macdonald to be like Spinal Tap.  Yes or no?

Brad

Good gracious -- before we know it, Shivas is gonna' go all Judas Priest on us on this thread. ;D


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2010, 09:56:11 PM »

And that's the best analogy I've come across lately for how to put a golf course together. 
To get the perfect variety of 18 holes, you need some quieter notes, and there are moments where you ought to let one instrument or one hazard shine; and there are others where you throw the whole band at it. 
But there are way too many architects who come out with a big band of guys who play loud and over the top of one another, to where you can't even tell how good each of the players really is.

That's an interesting analogy, but, I'm unclear as to how you go about conceptualizing and executing the process when it comes to GCA.

I'm fairly certain that you're not saying that you deliberately "dumb down" holes to further accentuate the better ones.

I had always perceived that you tried to find the best 18 holes available, sort of like the "Constellation" routing at Sand Hills, where about 120 potential holes were distilled down to 18 solid holes.

Is it unreasonable to conclude that on most sites that, "not all holes will be created equal" due to the site's constraints ?

That the process and almost every site produces variety, not just in the configuration of the holes, but in the quality of the holes as well ?

Having said all this, I would ask you this question.
At Pacific Dunes, what holes do you consider "weak" or lessor holes to the "outstanding" holes ? 
And, what holes do you consider the outstanding holes ?





Jud_T

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2010, 10:24:28 PM »
Sean,

Not a great guitarist?  Have you ever seen Neil live? Maybe not the most technically proficient, but in terms of Rock'n'roll feeling and intensity, one of the best.  83 all-time on the Rolling Stone list.....The Kingsley Club of guitar players: raw and natural and when you least suspect it, he blows your mind.... 8)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Colin Sheehan

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2010, 10:29:46 PM »
I saw Lyle and his band at Jazz Fest in New Orleans in the spring of 2000. Wonderful concert. Jimmy Buffet came out for a duet on "If I Had a Boat."

Another interesting analogy, Tom, is  the aspect of Lyle's band as a business model. I remember reading a lengthy New Yorker feature on him a few years ago and the gist of what I remember about the margins was when on tour, six of the seven days went to paying for the cost of the band and the seventh day was profit.

I just found the story. Tom, I think you'll like it (Actually, it's five days to break even and profit is the sixth day.)

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/03/01/040301fa_fact1

Two passages from the article:
 
"Lovett tours assiduously. He had a long tour last summer with his Large Band, which includes twelve other musicians and four singers, and then, to promote his new record, “My Baby Don’t Tolerate,” which came out at the end of September, he went on the road with a smaller band, essentially the Large Band without the singers and the horns, and with a few changes in personnel. He also came to New York and played guitar and sang by himself one night on a small stage downtown, and he went to Los Angeles with a five-piece band to appear on the “Tonight Show.” Otherwise, he mostly stayed in Klein."

"Over the summer, I met up with Lovett one rainy night in Philadelphia, where he was to perform with the Large Band on a stage beside the Delaware River. The crowd waited in the rain and got soaked. I sat with Lovett on his bus and looked at tapes of the fillies in the field at Carol Rose’s ranch. Onstage, under a leaky awning, the drums and the piano and the pedal steel guitar were covered with big sheets of plastic, like drop cloths. The Large Band is very expensive to keep on the road. Lovett essentially plays five nights to break even, then makes his money on the sixth night. He can’t easily afford to cancel a show. The rain slowed to a drizzle around showtime. Lovett stood behind a curtain by the side of the stage with Gilmer, Hagen, and Viktor Krauss, his bass player."




Mickey Boland

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2010, 10:37:52 PM »
Lyle Lovett, his Julia Roberts interlude notwithstanding, is one of my favorite artists.  His "Joshua Judges Ruth" album is his best, IMHO.  And my favorite lyric is "She's No Lady", as dark a salute to marriage as ever's been written.

Lyle Lovett.  A fellow Aggie.  He and I actually attended at the same time, although we never crossed paths of course.  He was probably playing in the bars while I was drinking there.

"Road to Ensenada" is his best album I believe.

Tom_Doak

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2010, 10:49:29 PM »

And that's the best analogy I've come across lately for how to put a golf course together. 
To get the perfect variety of 18 holes, you need some quieter notes, and there are moments where you ought to let one instrument or one hazard shine; and there are others where you throw the whole band at it. 
But there are way too many architects who come out with a big band of guys who play loud and over the top of one another, to where you can't even tell how good each of the players really is.

That's an interesting analogy, but, I'm unclear as to how you go about conceptualizing and executing the process when it comes to GCA.

I'm fairly certain that you're not saying that you deliberately "dumb down" holes to further accentuate the better ones.

I had always perceived that you tried to find the best 18 holes available, sort of like the "Constellation" routing at Sand Hills, where about 120 potential holes were distilled down to 18 solid holes.

Is it unreasonable to conclude that on most sites that, "not all holes will be created equal" due to the site's constraints ?

That the process and almost every site produces variety, not just in the configuration of the holes, but in the quality of the holes as well ?

Having said all this, I would ask you this question.
At Pacific Dunes, what holes do you consider "weak" or lessor holes to the "outstanding" holes ? 
And, what holes do you consider the outstanding holes ?



Patrick:

Indeed, the property automatically creates a variety of holes, if you know how to use it.  But I don't think Lyle Lovett would agree that he is "dumbing down" some of the songs in his concert.  Instead, he is simplifying some of them, so you're not overwhelmed and you can relax a little bit and appreciate them more.

Similarly, in golf you have to decide which holes ought to be bunkered heavily, and which don't need it; and which greens ought to be the most undulating, and which others somewhat flatter.

Some architects suggest that you balance these things ... if the hole is long and undulating, you need a flat green to compensate so the shot values aren't too severe.  That's not what I saw in Scotland at all, or in many of the great courses.  That's over-thinking it, and it doesn't come off as natural (not that all architects care about that).

Let's take Ballyneal as an example, just for a break from Bandon.  

The first hole there is really simple ... a diagonal tee shot and a green with severe trouble on the left.  There aren't a lot of bunkers to sort out from the tee; I didn't think you needed that on the first hole.  

The second hole is also fairly straightforward, but much longer and a little bit blind off the tee; it's hard to get the ball close to the hole on the second, but not because the flag will be tucked behind a bunker.

The third is a pretty little par-3, but it's sometimes very hard to get close, because the green runs away from you.

The fourth is a huge view from the tee [the full on band!], a very exposed tee shot in the wind, and then a big choice to make if you're going to go for the green in two.

The fifth isn't a looker of a par-3, but there's a tiny bunker to attract your interest which the hole might be tucked right behind, and the green is very difficult if you're in the wrong part of it.

The sixth is a very difficult long 4, but it starts out with a blind tee shot and it's only when you get up to the green that you really find out how difficult the hole is.

The seventh is short but full of character; it's got one very prominent fairway bunker and a very wild and beautiful green.

I could go on, but I think you're getting the picture.  Sometimes the length and challenge of the hole (or just the orientation) is what makes it memorable; sometimes the view overwhelms everything, so the architecture becomes simpler; and sometimes (as on holes 5 and 7) you amp up the features to command the player's attention, the same way a band leader would let one of his musicians take center stage for a bit.  That's not dumbing it down.

Mike_Young

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2010, 10:57:05 PM »
With the analogy of Golf Design and Music the biggest issues I see is:
Many music critics enjoy several different types of music....and musicians
I think people usually go pretty deep with just one type of golf design....just a thought...

But TD is right on ....seems like so many of the good bands had exceptional musicians...Fleetwood Mac....Pink Floyd....and on and on...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adam Clayman

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2010, 11:03:47 PM »
Patrick, If there's one person I would want to host the most at Ballyneal, it would be you. Please consider a trip? If walking is a problem, after Sept. 15th we can get a few carts out without disturbing the turf.

I once opined to Tom that I felt the ninth was a sort of breather. He said it would not be looked at in that way, because, of the half par nature of the seventh and eight holes. However, I was not speaking in terms of difficulty, but rather with your senses, and visually.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2010, 11:22:13 PM »
Two little snippets/stories, unrelated to anything really, but:

1) When Benny Goodman was at the height of his fame and popularity and mastery of the jazz clarinet as "The King of Swing" in the late 30s and early 40s, he once played a show on the same bill as Frank Sinatra.  And Frank tells of how, before the show, all the musicians were hanging around backstage just chit-chatting and sharing some laughs -- all of them except Benny Goodman, who was off by himself, practicing the clarinet.  Now, Frank knew that Benny was a master clarinettist and also knew of his past years of intense devotion to practice, so he walked over and said, 'Benny, why don't you come over and join us?  Why do you still want to do so much practicing".  And Benny replied, without a hint of false-modesty: "Because if I can't always be great, I at least want to be good".

2) This one involves Frank Sinatra again. Years later, after pianist Teddy Wilson had left the Goodman band and been on his own for a long time, he had a long-standing gig in one of the smarter New York nightclubs, playing as a solo act. Of course, since he was Teddy Wilson and this was New York, any and all of the great pop singers of the day would come in and listen to him when they were in town, and most would get up and sing a few songs with him. A reporter once asked Teddy who the best singer of all was in his opinion, and Teddy said "Frank Sinatra". The reporter asked why, expecting to hear technical talk about Frank's phrasing or breath-control, or his great taste/choice of material or his swagger or his tone, but instead Teddy said it was "Because he really loves to sing".  Think about that - Teddy wasn't talking about amateurs or dillettants, he was talking about the best and most talented pop and jazz singers of his era, and about the ones who'd worked hard for years and years to achieve and maintain their level of success. And yet, even among them, Teddy didn't find many who loved to sing.    

Peter

By the way, no, I'm not 110 years old. But the music of the young people today, with the boogiedy-woogiedy and their rappity-rap, the blonde hair everywhere and the tightness, in the crotch and across the shoulder, and everything electric and the fire on stage and a, a bat...ugh - what do I know about all this, what do you, this racket?  I don't know anything.  
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 11:50:05 PM by PPallotta »

John Kirk

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2010, 12:12:42 AM »
After that post, I am beginning to feel better about my recurring discussions with peter Pallotta in which references to jazz musicians and their shared characteristics with golf course architects are a running theme met with indifference or puzzlement by the majority of our compatriots on this board.

SL,

I'm with you and Peter, whom I have discussed the jazz analogy with as well.

Let's add another analogy.  I played basketball as a kid.  After college, I began to organize rec league basketball teams, paying the fees and picking my players.  I played with many different styles of players over the years.  I was a point guard, and though I was generally a benevolent dictator, I was a very unselfish player, a pass-first, loud-mouthed conductor of the basketball orchestra.  I maximized the strengths of the players I had, and made sure everybody had a green light to create and score.  In general we were very successful, and we made lots of memories together.

Tom,

I am so happy that you think about your craft in this fashion.  Thanks for the post, Herr Conductor.


John Kirk

Re: Why Would I Write About Lyle Lovett Here?
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2010, 12:22:17 AM »
The rain slowed to a drizzle around showtime. Lovett stood behind a curtain by the side of the stage with Gilmer, Hagen, and Viktor Krauss, his bass player."



Viktor Krauss is the brother of the great singer and fiddle player Alison Krauss.

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