another rules violation: Inky DQ'ed...

[Garland Bayley]

Geoff S also tells the story of a 14 year old who won a junior tournament, but when he got home someone noticed he had an extra club is his bag

admirably, the kid called it in on his own, took the 4shot penalty, and became runner up

No, he had signed a score card without the 4 shot penalty. He notified the tournament officials knowing he be DQ'ing himself and returned the medal.
A friend had left a club at his house and he put it in his bag with the intention of returning it, but ended up playing with it in the bag before returning it.

[JohnV]

Geoff S also tells the story of a 14 year old who won a junior tournament, but when he got home someone noticed he had an extra club is his bag

admirably, the kid called it in on his own, took the 4shot penalty, and became runner up

No, he had signed a score card without the 4 shot penalty. He notified the tournament officials knowing he be DQ'ing himself and returned the medal.
A friend had left a club at his house and he put it in his bag with the intention of returning it, but ended up playing with it in the bag before returning it.

He is not disqualified.  The competition is closed and he was unaware of the violation before it closed therefore he can not be DQ'ed.  He is welcome to turn the medal back, but the folks in charge should not take remove him from the final scores.

Rule 34-1b.

[PThomas]

Geoff S also tells the story of a 14 year old who won a junior tournament, but when he got home someone noticed he had an extra club is his bag

admirably, the kid called it in on his own, took the 4shot penalty, and became runner up

No, he had signed a score card without the 4 shot penalty. He notified the tournament officials knowing he be DQ'ing himself and returned the medal.
A friend had left a club at his house and he put it in his bag with the intention of returning it, but ended up playing with it in the bag before returning it.

He is not disqualified.  The competition is closed and he was unaware of the violation before it closed therefore he can not be DQ'ed.  He is welcome to turn the medal back, but the folks in charge should not take remove him from the final scores.

Rule 34-1b.

thanks for correcting my non-expert version of the story JVB!

[Jerry Kluger]

John: It does seem that the situation is bad - it's one thing if you never touch your ball before you hole out but it is different if you pick it up to clean it and then replace it as you would have to notice that it was the wrong ball.  Conspiring to cover up the violation can be worse than the offense itself - ask one former president so it is important that they determine all the facts.

[Pete_Pittock]

Andrew,
In Rule 1-3 and its decisions you pass over the importlant word 'knowingly'. If they did not know how to proceed after the first person hit from the wrong teeing ground, their agreement to play from the members tee box was permissible. As this is match play there is no field to protect.

Hi Pete,

I have perused R1-3 and its decisions again. I have failed to find the word “knowingly” anywhere. But of course, we are talking about the word “agree”.

The answer to Decision 1-3/1 does make it explicit (as you point out) that;
1.   Players must be aware they are waiving a Rule
2.   If the players were ignorant of the Rules, they can’t be waiving a Rule
3.   If players are aware of the Rules and agree not to follow them, they breach Rule 1-3

In the case at hand, I was responding specifically to Dan’s situation (added to the original situation), which reads,
Ok - what happens if "A" says, never mind - let's just play from here.  "B" agrees and they play on.

If someone says “Never mind, let’s just play from here”, to my mind that person admits they know they have, or that they will, play from the wrong location. The agreement from B is obtained and they play on – there has been an agreement to play from the wrong teeing ground. An agreement to exclude the operation of R11-5 and R1-1.

Regards
Andrew

Andrew,
You make very good points and quite nicely. I didn't pick up on "never mind'.  But check 1-3/6 again.

[Andrew Brown]

Pete,

I checked. Oops! It's actually there twice (in the title and Decision text).  It really is time for me to take that long-put-off eye test.

Regards
Andrew

[Garland Bayley]

Geoff S also tells the story of a 14 year old who won a junior tournament, but when he got home someone noticed he had an extra club is his bag

admirably, the kid called it in on his own, took the 4shot penalty, and became runner up

No, he had signed a score card without the 4 shot penalty. He notified the tournament officials knowing he be DQ'ing himself and returned the medal.
A friend had left a club at his house and he put it in his bag with the intention of returning it, but ended up playing with it in the bag before returning it.

He is not disqualified.  The competition is closed and he was unaware of the violation before it closed therefore he can not be DQ'ed.  He is welcome to turn the medal back, but the folks in charge should not take remove him from the final scores.

Rule 34-1b.

Thanks JVB,

I kind of wondered about that myself. I only reported what the news article I read said.

[John Moore II]

I read today that there was an incident on the LPGA tour where two players on Sunday played each others ball on the 18th hole and then signed their scorecards without taking necessary penalty strokes.  Somehow the matter came up and they went back and discussed it with the officials and were disqualified.  I am not sure that I have the facts correct but I am quite certain that they did play the wrong ball and did not assess themselves the appropriate penalty.  How can this happen - it does not seem possible that they only realized this after they signed their cards. Does anyone know exactly what happened and how it was that they both signed for the wrong score?   

I posted a Yahoo blog article about that a couple of days ago, its back on page 2.

[Jerry Kluger]

John: I guess I missed it as I wasn't closely following this thread.  I believe that the credibility of the LPGA Tour will be tested when we see how they rule and if they impose significant penalties.  What happens to the caddie who cleaned the ball and had to see it had the wrong markings? 

[JohnV]

The LPGA has ruled.  Read Beth Ann Baldry:  http://www.golfweek.com/news/2010/sep/02/dq-leaves-ahn-stunned-agent-says/

[John Moore II]

Geoff S also tells the story of a 14 year old who won a junior tournament, but when he got home someone noticed he had an extra club is his bag

admirably, the kid called it in on his own, took the 4shot penalty, and became runner up

No, he had signed a score card without the 4 shot penalty. He notified the tournament officials knowing he be DQ'ing himself and returned the medal.
A friend had left a club at his house and he put it in his bag with the intention of returning it, but ended up playing with it in the bag before returning it.

He is not disqualified.  The competition is closed and he was unaware of the violation before it closed therefore he can not be DQ'ed.  He is welcome to turn the medal back, but the folks in charge should not take remove him from the final scores.

Rule 34-1b.

Thanks JVB,

I kind of wondered about that myself. I only reported what the news article I read said.

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/blog/devil_ball_golf/post/What-would-you-do-teen-golfer-disqualifies-self?urn=golf-267228

Blog article about the club incident.

Is the PGA really going to DQ him after the competition is closed? Am I reading this rule wrong??

Rule 34-1b, Exception iii:  (iii) returned a score for any hole lower than actually taken (Rule 6-6d) for any reason other than failure to include a penalty that, before the competition closed, he did not know he had incurred;

Am I reading that wrong when I understand it to mean that you can't be disqualified for not adding a penalty stroke for breaching a rule when you were not aware of the violation? If that is the case, why on Earth is this kid being disqualified again? Pete, JVB, help me out here, either someone has made a poor decision or I can't comprehend what I read.

[JohnV]

Don't worry John, he can't be DQ'ed.  He didn't know he had incurred the penalty before the competition closed.  The PGA Section still was showing him as the winner last time I looked.  He can return the medal if he wants, but he can't be DQ'ed.

[John Moore II]

Don't worry John, he can't be DQ'ed.  He didn't know he had incurred the penalty before the competition closed.  The PGA Section still was showing him as the winner last time I looked.  He can return the medal if he wants, but he can't be DQ'ed.

I was only going with what the article said:
Title: What would you do: teen golfer disqualifies self, gives up medal 
From the article: Carrying an extra club is a two-stroke penalty per hole, but since Nash didn't account for those extra strokes, he signed what was, in effect, an incorrect scorecard, and thus would be disqualified from the tournament....Nash called the Wisconsin PGA, explained what had happened, and sent back the medal from the tournament. WPGA officials plan to present it to the tournament's runner-up. 

So...

[Andrew Brown]

Is the LPGA DQ case from last week really closed?

The caddies own account;

http://www.waggleroom.com/2010/9/3/1667220/shi-hyun-ahns-caddie-speaks-on

Andrew

[Tim_Cronin]

Geoff S also tells the story of a 14 year old who won a junior tournament, but when he got home someone noticed he had an extra club is his bag

admirably, the kid called it in on his own, took the 4shot penalty, and became runner up

No, he had signed a score card without the 4 shot penalty. He notified the tournament officials knowing he be DQ'ing himself and returned the medal.
A friend had left a club at his house and he put it in his bag with the intention of returning it, but ended up playing with it in the bag before returning it.

He is not disqualified.  The competition is closed and he was unaware of the violation before it closed therefore he can not be DQ'ed.  He is welcome to turn the medal back, but the folks in charge should not take remove him from the final scores.

Rule 34-1b.

At an AJGA tournament at Notre Dame last summer, the girl winner DQed herself the following day after discovering she'd signed an incorrect scorecard (for a 4 on the 18th rather than the 5 she scored). Neither she nor anyone else noticed at the time. She only discovered it while checking her stats online.
She got the trophy to the AJGA and it was forwarded to the new winner, so to speak. Since the competition was closed, should the result have been changed?

[JohnV]

Geoff S also tells the story of a 14 year old who won a junior tournament, but when he got home someone noticed he had an extra club is his bag

admirably, the kid called it in on his own, took the 4shot penalty, and became runner up

No, he had signed a score card without the 4 shot penalty. He notified the tournament officials knowing he be DQ'ing himself and returned the medal.
A friend had left a club at his house and he put it in his bag with the intention of returning it, but ended up playing with it in the bag before returning it.

He is not disqualified.  The competition is closed and he was unaware of the violation before it closed therefore he can not be DQ'ed.  He is welcome to turn the medal back, but the folks in charge should not take remove him from the final scores.

Rule 34-1b.

At an AJGA tournament at Notre Dame last summer, the girl winner DQed herself the following day after discovering she'd signed an incorrect scorecard (for a 4 on the 18th rather than the 5 she scored). Neither she nor anyone else noticed at the time. She only discovered it while checking her stats online.
She got the trophy to the AJGA and it was forwarded to the new winner, so to speak. Since the competition was closed, should the result have been changed?

Tim,  A different case.  She signed for 4 when she made a 5 due to talent, not a penalty she didn't know about.  The exception does not apply so she must be DQ'ed.

"Rule 34-1b, Exception iii:  (iii) returned a score for any hole lower than actually taken (Rule 6-6d) for any reason other than failure to include a penalty that, before the competition closed, he did not know he had incurred;"

[Kris Shreiner]

Question men...is the player alllowed to tee it up anywhere one or two clublenghs behind the tee markers? Thanks in advance.

[Jim Nugent]

At an AJGA tournament at Notre Dame last summer, the girl winner DQed herself the following day after discovering she'd signed an incorrect scorecard (for a 4 on the 18th rather than the 5 she scored). Neither she nor anyone else noticed at the time. She only discovered it while checking her stats online.
She got the trophy to the AJGA and it was forwarded to the new winner, so to speak. Since the competition was closed, should the result have been changed?

How much did she win by, counting 4 on the last hole instead of 5? 

[John Moore II]

Question men...is the player alllowed to tee it up anywhere one or two clublenghs behind the tee markers? Thanks in advance.

Two; Definition of Teeing Ground.