Foursomes green fee

[Mark Chaplin]

Congratulations to Royal West Norfolk aka Brancaster who are introducing a new green fee structure in 2011 to encourage foursomes golf (alternate shot).

Play two ball all day and the greenfee is £110, morning two ball and afternoon foursome £100, morning foursome and afternoon two ball £85 and foursomes all day £75.

Finally those of us who prefer the alternate shot version of golf get some value!!

[Dan Herrmann]

Mark,
How do they handle pace of play?  Will a four-ball let the foursome through?

[Mark Chaplin]

They only allow 2 ball play.

[Mark Smolens]

This sounds great for the folks who desire to play foursomes, but is the pace of play such that the course can make enough $$ to make up for the fewer # of players? Hs the course always precluded a fourball?  If they had 10 minute tee times (probably unnecessary with two balls, but easier math for a poor lawyer who can barely figure out what 1/3 of the fee is), that's 6 groups an hour. 24 greens fees. Assume they start at 7 and have a full course until 1 p.m. That's 120 full fees.

Can a two ball course (or one with groups of foursomes) cut that tee time interval in half? I wouldn't think so. Let's say they can cut their interval to 7 minutes? Admittedly, if the course does not have a full tee sheet and a deal like this will bring out more players this is a great idea, but I"m just wondering from the course owner perspective if the economics work out.

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark - there are a number of UK courses where 3 and 4 ball play is not permitted, this system at least allows a four to play together as an alternate shot and then split to play two ball and save some mone as well.

Two ball only courses include Rye, Brancaster & West Sussex.

Some such as Deal, Sandwich, Aldeburgh, Royal Ashdown, Prestwick, Littlestone and Muirfield allow 3/4 balls on certain days only.

[Carl Nichols]

Why don't they call foursomes two ball (since only 2 balls are in play), and why don't they call two ball four ball (since there are 4 balls in play)?

[Scott Warren]

Carl,
Two ball = two guys playing their own ball. So singles played in a group of two.
Threeball = Three guys playing their own ball (Burnham is a three ball club, I believe).
Fourball = Four guys playing their own ball.

[Simon Holt]

Thats pretty cool.  I love foursomes golf.

Mark- not sure if it has only happned since the last time you were there but Luffness has allowed 3s and 4s for as long as I can remember.  I am playing there in a 4 this afternoon.

[Sean_A]

Why don't they call foursomes two ball (since only 2 balls are in play), and why don't they call two ball four ball (since there are 4 balls in play)?

Yes, two cultures divided by a common language.  

Two ball = two guys playing their own ball. So singles played in a group of two.
Threeball = Three guys playing their own ball (Burnham is a three ball club, I believe).
Fourball = Four guys playing their own ball.
Foursome = four guys playing two balls alternately
Greensome (my favourite game) = four guys playing two balls alternately except both guys drive then pick the drive of their choice (this keeps all four players together unlike how foursomes should properly be played where two groups of two are split for much of the game)
Foursome Bogey (a cool, but tough game) = Two guys playing one ball alternately, but scoring a + (better than par), - (worse than par) or 0 (status quo).  This is obviously not a matchplay set up, but used with a field - very traditional one day competition which is dying out.  O or +1 can often win this type of competition especially if handicaps are limited to 3/4s of 18 tops.  
Albatross = a shot holed in three less than par

Scott

Burnham is a 2, 3 and 4 ball club depending on the tee time.  Generally, 2 ball until 10ish, 3 ball until 12ish and 4 ball in the afternoon.

Ciao

[Warwick Loton]

As well as encouraging foursomes, this arrangement might actually be economically advantageous for the Club.

When its course is very busy and visitors agree to play foursomes, the Club will earn more per timesheet slot allocated to visitors (ie it would earn much more in green fees from a group of 4 foursomes guests than from 2 guests playing as a 2-ball). When the course isn't busy, they might still come out ahead: the only way to pay less as a visitor in 2011 than in 2010 is to play 18 holes or less of foursomes, and I suspect most visitors making the trip to play Brancaster would want to play more shots than this.

[Mark Chaplin]

Warwick - Deal (Tues & Thurs) and Sandwich (Tues) allow 3 and 4 ball play as small groups of guys like to play together and have a laugh rather than split into 2s. We jumped into bed with the slow play devil for commerical reasons!

Brancaster's move has a couple of benefits. Two ball uses lots of tee times, hence they make it more advantageous to play foursome in the morning when the tee is under more pressure. The speed of play is improved as foursomes are quicker than two ball.

Simon - disappointing!

[Simon Holt]

After reading this thread I feel compelled to suggest foursomes this afternoon.  Mark- I will do my bit to keep the tradituion going!!  Not sure if my American friends will be keen but Luffness is such a good wee course I am sure they will have a good time either way.

[Steve Wilson]

In June of 1997 when I played Dornoch for the first time, I had a nine o'clock tee time and was informed when I booked that only two balls were alllowed out until 10 p.m.  Afterwards, 98, 2000 and 2003 I never ran into this situation.  I don't know if I caught the practice at the very end, if it was experimental or was just limited to certain.  Perhaps one of those more experienced with Dornoch could fill in the blanks.

[Sven Nilsen]

Has anyone ever played three-man alternate shot (2 teams of 3)?  We gave it a go this past weekend at Kingsley as a way of getting in a quick nine in the waning moments of sunlight.  Using carts, by the time the two-some hitting the tee balls arrived at the green, they were just in time to attempt a par putt.

On another evening, we also played a modified one-club nine hole match (modified meaning each team was allowed one throw per nine).  Highlights included reverse-stance hybrids from the bunkers (using the slanted back of the club for loft), the ever consistent six-iron chip and a par made by our host Andrew Lewis on the 9th to the south pin using a 7-iron, including a flopped 2nd shot to 5 feet.

[Jason McOlgan]

Three man alternate shot with carts was a hoot.  Makes for very quick play.

[JNC Lyon]

Gents,

Sorry I missed this thread in its inception, but I am a HUGE fan of foursome play.  I loved it the two times I played it Deal.  There is so many subtleties to it, and it really is a TEAM game.  You rely on your partner, and he relies on you, unlike fourball where you are playing your own ball and your own game.

Of course, the best reason to endorse foursomes is pace of play.  Four people can play 18 holes in under three hours.  It is brilliant!  I love playing with three of my good friends, but it usually means a round of 4+ hours.  That is just too slow.  Foursomes solves this problem.  Why isn't the format used in the US?  I guess everyone here is too obsessed with posting their own horrendous score to make a sacrifice for team golf and fast play.

JNCL

[Bill_McBride]

Carl,
Two ball = two guys playing their own ball. So singles played in a group of two.
Threeball = Three guys playing their own ball (Burnham is a three ball club, I believe).
Fourball = Four guys playing their own ball.

And foursomes = Four guys playing two balls in alternate shot format.

Do the two ball clubs ever allow modified alternate shot format (i.e. Modified Chapman or Pinehurst, where all 4 drive and partners pick the drive they prefer)?

I really prefer pure foursomes where you start down the fairway (hopefully) while your partner heads for the tee.

[Scott Warren]

Johnny L:

Foursomes with mates is great fun. Especially as the second round of a 36-hole day. I don't know if I'd want to drive the 1h45m to Deal just to play foursomes, but a day combining singles and foursomes is great. If I lived local to my club, I'd be more willing to play an 18-hole day of just foursomes.

Foursomes with strangers is torture.

Bill McB: Pinehurst is called Greensomes here. Gets a bit of play, but not much.

[Bill_McBride]

Gents,

Sorry I missed this thread in its inception, but I am a HUGE fan of foursome play.  I loved it the two times I played it Deal.  There is so many subtleties to it, and it really is a TEAM game.  You rely on your partner, and he relies on you, unlike fourball where you are playing your own ball and your own game.

Of course, the best reason to endorse foursomes is pace of play.  Four people can play 18 holes in under three hours.  It is brilliant!  I love playing with three of my good friends, but it usually means a round of 4+ hours.  That is just too slow.  Foursomes solves this problem.  Why isn't the format used in the US?  I guess everyone here is too obsessed with posting their own horrendous score to make a sacrifice for team golf and fast play.

JNCL

It's hard to play foursomes when everyone else ahead is playing fourballs.  Unless there is a foursomes specific event, I regrettably don't see Americans playing foursomes over here.

[Bill_McBride]

Johnny L:

Foursomes with mates is great fun. Especially as the second round of a 36-hole day. I don't know if I'd want to drive the 1h45m to Deal just to play foursomes, but a day combining singles and foursomes is great. If I lived local to my club, I'd be more willing to play an 18-hole day of just foursomes.

Foursomes with strangers is torture.

Bill McB: Pinehurst is called Greensomes here. Gets a bit of play, but not much.

Actually, the only time I ever played a "Pinehurst" was at Alwoodley, where my wife and I played a very good match vs Nick and Sara Leefe, at Nick's suggestion.

[JNC Lyon]

Gents,

Sorry I missed this thread in its inception, but I am a HUGE fan of foursome play.  I loved it the two times I played it Deal.  There is so many subtleties to it, and it really is a TEAM game.  You rely on your partner, and he relies on you, unlike fourball where you are playing your own ball and your own game.

Of course, the best reason to endorse foursomes is pace of play.  Four people can play 18 holes in under three hours.  It is brilliant!  I love playing with three of my good friends, but it usually means a round of 4+ hours.  That is just too slow.  Foursomes solves this problem.  Why isn't the format used in the US?  I guess everyone here is too obsessed with posting their own horrendous score to make a sacrifice for team golf and fast play.

JNCL

It's hard to play foursomes when everyone else ahead is playing fourballs.  Unless there is a foursomes specific event, I regrettably don't see Americans playing foursomes over here.

Very understandable, which is why I never played foursomes in the States.  It would require a change in culture more than individuals deciding they'd rather play foursomes.

[Adam Lawrence]

Johnny L:

Foursomes with mates is great fun. Especially as the second round of a 36-hole day. I don't know if I'd want to drive the 1h45m to Deal just to play foursomes, but a day combining singles and foursomes is great. If I lived local to my club, I'd be more willing to play an 18-hole day of just foursomes.

Foursomes with strangers is torture.

Bill McB: Pinehurst is called Greensomes here. Gets a bit of play, but not much.

Actually, the only time I ever played a "Pinehurst" was at Alwoodley, where my wife and I played a very match vs Nick and Sara Leefe, at Nick's suggestion.

I was just about to say that you see greensomes a fair bit in mixed competitions at clubs. Among men who play with their wives, it's known as a Mixed Gruesome.

[Bill_McBride]

Johnny L:

Foursomes with mates is great fun. Especially as the second round of a 36-hole day. I don't know if I'd want to drive the 1h45m to Deal just to play foursomes, but a day combining singles and foursomes is great. If I lived local to my club, I'd be more willing to play an 18-hole day of just foursomes.

Foursomes with strangers is torture.

Bill McB: Pinehurst is called Greensomes here. Gets a bit of play, but not much.

Actually, the only time I ever played a "Pinehurst" was at Alwoodley, where my wife and I played a very match vs Nick and Sara Leefe, at Nick's suggestion.

I was just about to say that you see greensomes a fair bit in mixed competitions at clubs. Among men who play with their wives, it's known as a Mixed Gruesome.

In tennis it's called "Mixed Troubles."  Same concept!

[JohnV]

My wife and I once played through an 8-some at Southerness.  Could be a way to have the fun, but not be running through all the four-ball play.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

What's the difference between Greensomes, Mixed Greensomes and Scotch Greensomes? It's been so long since I played any version of Greensomes.

In Sweden they play "Irish" Greensomes. I had never heard of it before. Maybe it's their version of Scotch Greensomes.