[Phil McDade]

Bart:

Take a look at the photo thread on Sand Hills -- about as linksy as you can get in the US -- and all the platitudes there about bunkers fronting greens (and criticism from some that the course is too aerial on its approach shot demands). Yes, those bunkers bring lots of angles into play, but it doesn't make the course any less linksy. I've played several links courses that demand aerial approachs on holes.

Any course can play fast and firm, with cooperation from the weather, and a certain maintenance meld. But weather, turf, and the land underneath has a lot to do with it.

[RJ_Daley]

Wanting to know why SHGC plays more like links-dunesland than WS is all about the sub soil or sand.  Sand Hills is just that, sand, deep and drains naturally and rapidly.  WS is somewhat sand capped over native clayey loam, not very good perculating ground.  The amount of drainage under WS and Irish is mindboggling because it must have that much to drain.  And believe me, this several weeks to months stretch of rain around here has been monsoonlike for us.  The turf at WS was originally planted as fescue/rye on the sandcapped with clayey subsoil.  Some turf head would have to tell you all the rationale for the conversion now to Bent FWs and Greens of specific cultivars, along with intermediate roughs and bunker surrounds of stricktly blues.  But, it takes a heck of a lot more fertility and water, which seems to me will alter the play of the course even from the 04 PGA.  We'll just have to wait and see.

Bottom line on why SH and WS are so different is because they are two completely different swards of turf over two completely different terrain and soil characteristics, one being 100% natural and one being 100% manufactured and engineered.

[Carl Nichols]

Carl:

The design of #10 played a big role in the '04 PGA playoff with Singh, Leonard and DiMarco. Both Leonard and DiMarco opted for the safer route right of the centerline bunker. Singh gambled and went left and long in the fairway, setting up a very short chip and a subsequent birdie the others couldn't match. One of my favorite holes on the course.

Phil:
For whatever reason, though I watched the '04 PGA, I have no recollection of the playoff and how it ended.  

I suspect it plays much different at 390 than it does where we played it (the tees were up) at about 325.....

[Phil McDade]

Carl:

The design of #10 played a big role in the '04 PGA playoff with Singh, Leonard and DiMarco. Both Leonard and DiMarco opted for the safer route right of the centerline bunker. Singh gambled and went left and long in the fairway, setting up a very short chip and a subsequent birdie the others couldn't match. One of my favorite holes on the course.

Phil:
For whatever reason, though I watched the '04 PGA, I have no recollection of the playoff and how it ended.  I suspect it plays much different at 390 than it does where we played it (the tees were up) at about 325.....

Three-hole playoff starting at #10, and Singh took advantage of his length to play a pretty high-risk tee shot left and past the bunker. The risk was that Leonard and DiMarco were safely on the fairway; yank that tee shot left, and you're dead. Singh had a much easier pitch and sank a very short birdie putt, and he never relinquished the lead, as the holes coming in -- 17 and 18 -- were very hard to birdie that day.

[Mark Smolens]

RJ, I'm no turfhead, but I can recall at least one trip to Kohler where they actually knocked $100 of the greens fee because of the condition of the fairways (as in no grass!).

I agree with Pat that the Straits can be worth a play, tho not a steady diet of trips until I hit those six numbers tomorrow night!

[Anthony Gray]

 Thanks again Doc. I like the new bunker on 6.I believe the knock on the hole was that it played shoort and needed some teeth.Looks like they found it.What a great joy pulling off a shot fro in there.Always looved 5 when most everybody hates.Tee ball to the left second to the right and pitch to island.WHAT IS NOT TO LOVE? A very unique hole.Again GIVE ME SOMETHING.In the clughouse each hole should have some memorable to discuss and these two holes posted meet that criteria.Fun course period.And derserving of majors.

  Anthony

Anthony:

The aesthetics of number 5 do not match the rest of the course.  There are 2 lakes on the hole.  How do you see those relating to the other architecture?

For me, "WHAT IS NOT TO LOVE?" is the jarring contrast with the surrounds.

Bart

  The hole does not match the others,BUT I like the hole. If on a differenent course I think it would be beloved.A double dog leg with a mostly island green is unique.That green can't hold a ball in two.AND the challenge of how much you bite of the water with the tee ball has similarities with a Cape Hole Ttee ball.Fun stuff but agrred out of place....still golf. Again I enjoy your contributions.Threads with pictures are always more enjoyable.

  Anthony

[Bart Bradley]

I look at that hole and it looks pretty similar to the 16th at Pacific Dunes or 14th at Chambers or slew of other genuine links holes. It looks like there is a mound front left to work your ball to the right.

I agree with everyone who says the environment and soil are different at SH and WS.  No doubt you all are correct.

There are a large number of shots that can only be played in an aerial fashion as well.  Rich, no doubt many links courses have shots that limit ground game options...but at Whistling Straits there are a large number of them.  Here is another picture of 6 from the fairway.  I think you will see that, if the hole were on the right, using the small hump on the left would not allow one to get the ball in the same area code.




please be sure to pan the picture to the right to see the whole green.
Thanks for the discussion.  Doesn't anyone else want to give it their rating?


Bart

[Anthony Gray]

 It is quirk.So it has that going for it.

[Bart Bradley]

 It is quirk.So it has that going for it.

Anthony:

Please don't misunderstand.  I like the 6th hole and love the green.  My point was that it doesn't necessarily set-up or encourage the ground game.

Bart

[Matt Kardash]

I think you can essentially roll the ball onto most greens. The only one's you cant are holes where you have short irons in your hand..like the 6th.
I fully praise The Straits for not trying to be like every other course. It is different and unique. And besides, at the end of the day, it has good holes. The one really awkward hole was 18 and potentially Dye might have found a solution to it with his alternate route. We will see how it plays this week.

[Anthony Gray]

 It is quirk.So it has that going for it.

Anthony:

Please don't misunderstand.  I like the 6th hole and love the green.  My point was that it doesn't necessarily set-up or encourage the ground game.

Bart

Agree.Is it the shotest par 4? It was when I played it.The caddies said they thought the pros may try to drive it...10 years ago.

  Anthony

[Bart Bradley]

Does anyone have any pictures of the changes made to 18?

Doesn't anyone else want to chime in and take a stand and give the course a rating on the Doak Scale?

Bart

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