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John_McMillan

Lost Shots at Augusta National
« on: February 06, 2002, 07:45:05 AM »
From a computer game reproduction I've done of the Mackenzie/Jones design of Augusta National, I've put together some of the shots no longer seen at the course.

http://www.gtownpres.org/augusta.html
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Ran Morrissett

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Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2002, 08:14:11 AM »
That is OUSTANDING. Excellent work.

Two immediate questions:

1. I always - rightly or wrongly - visualized the 10th green as being lower - more sunken behind that bunker -  than you have it. How confident are you of that rendering?

2. Which shot do you miss the most? I would say the 9th green as the shot stands today is so limiting in terms of #'s of ways to play the hole that the old boomerang green would lend back tons more variety to that hole.

Cheers for such a great job.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2002, 09:00:42 AM »
Good stuff John.  I was hoping to se the old 16th.  Did I miss it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_McMillan

Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2002, 09:02:57 AM »
Re the 10'th green -

I am fairly confident of the recreation.  I used three sources for this hole:  the "colorized" post-card of the original green; the Mackenzie diagram for the green in Geoff's "Golden Age" book (page 162); and the current slope of the area on the course.

The back left of the green in the recreation lies 2 feet below the front of the the bunker.  The Mackenzie diagram shows the front of the green at "0," the back left of the green at "-3," and the middle of the bunker at "-2."  The back and right of the green is a "natural bank 20' feet high."  It's the area beyond the green that really falls off.  One problem I had was recreating the elevation changes specified by Mackenzie on the green.  The edge of the green near the bunker is listed as "+6," down to a swale of "-3" in the middle of the green, and another plateau of "+5" to the back right of the green.  Getting a 9 foot change, and an 8 foot change in the green was not something I could make playable, with either a gentle slope, or a steeper one.  In conversations with Tom Doak, he suggested that Mackenzie's diagrams were often "suggestive" and that the final product reflected field revisions which worked out the details of playability.  As such, my recreation has slope changes scaled at half of Mackenzie's diagram - roughly 4 foot changes down and then back up.  

An additional confusion might be the angle of the image - it is taken from above the golfer, and tends to flatten out the contours and slopes.  I will guarantee you that a pic of my recreated green matches almost exactly the colorized post card.

Re the most missed shot -

The 9'th green can be great fun to play around on.  Approaches to the left pins (set in what today is the second bunker), can be very exciting - as can putts around the horseshoe.

I do think the approach on the 15'th was very strategic.  For a shorter hitter, this would have likely have involved a faded 4-wood, played from a downhill lie.  While Hogan was probably playing a shorter shot from a more level lie, I'm not sure he really appreciated how good a shot one had to hit from further back - and that giving it a little help with the slopes was not so great a sin.  With the modern maintenance making any shot short trickle back into the pond, I think the bail-out/bounce-shot to the right of the green would be the option I'd restore first on the course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

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Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2002, 09:09:30 AM »
John -

Fantastic.  Absolutely first rate.

A couple of thoughts:

I understood that the pond in front of 15 was a RTJ addition in 1949/50.  In the mid-30's aerials it appears to be just Rae's Creek.

I would be great to see the 11th green and surrounds before the creek was flooded, again by RTJ about 1950.

Any thoughts on the quality of Mack's original 16th?  

Your rendering of 7 is wonderful.  I have only seen aerials of the original hole and it looked defenseless.  With the swales it makes sense.  Must have been very interesting.  A real loss.

I too thought the original 10th green was "tucked" more behind the bunker.  I got that from your history of the hole you posted a couple of years ago.  (Maybe you could repost that?)  I know Perry Maxwell is well liked in this neighborhood, but his changes to 10 at ANGC were awful, a real violatation of MacK's strategic intentions for the hole.

Bob    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2002, 09:19:27 AM »
John --

Great stuff.

Two notes:

Maybe you could show, as one of the Lost Shots, a tee shot landing in the old middle-of-the-fairway bunker at 18. At least the past few years, one would have seen some Pro VIs and the like flying into that hazard.

According to David Owen's book -- speaking of the bunker on 11: "Jones's father, Colonel Bob Jones, drove into the hidden hazard during his first round on the course, in 1932. When the Colonel found his ball in the sand, he shouted, 'What goddamned fool put a goddamned bunker right in the goddamned center of the goddamned fairway?' or words to that effect. His son, who was playing with him (along with Roberts), had to answer, 'I did.' "
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2002, 09:21:23 AM »
John,

Pretty cool.  My takeaway from your work is that changes made to Augusta seem to have made the course less interesting and fun for the members.

I especially don't like Hogan's influence on #15.  It would seem that today almost all of the players in the Masters can go directly for the green.  By contrast, I would guess a large percentage of the members really can't.  Wouldn't Mackenzie's original design have kept the hole more fun for members?

The same situation appears with #9.  Was the boomerang green removed because members didn't like it?  Why would that be?  I've never heard anything about Crystal Downs members not liking #7 green?  Does this demonstrate the insidious influence catering to professionals can have?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

John_McMillan

Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2002, 09:55:58 AM »
I've done the entire course, so I'll try to add some of the "special requests" (11'th green, 16'th and 18'th holes) later.

Re the 10'th green - it's the same as I posted a couple years ago, so if it looks different, maybe it's due to the different perspective.  Remember though, it is supposed to look more open from the right side than from the left.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

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Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2002, 10:23:32 AM »
This is great!!! Would love to see you post the entire course. The differences are frightening!!

I've really enjoyed this post! Mant thanks! :) :) Looking forward to your additional holes!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_McMillan

Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2002, 10:40:45 AM »
Tim -

There have also been "member's changes" to Augusta National - I just didn't post them.  In particular, creeks in front of the 1'st, 6'th, 12'th and 13'th holes, as well as bunkers in front of the 2'nd, and 14'th holes have been filled in.  No professional golfer ever played into (or at least admitted to playing into) any of these hazards.

One "take" I think these changes emphasize for the professional golfer is that the adage that Augusta National is a course that favors a draw does not come from the original design, but more from the changes to the course.  Many of the great "fade" shots - the approach into 2, the drive on 10, the approaches on 13 and 15, the tee shot on 17 - have been designed away.

I get the impression that the 9'th at Augusta was a more severe green than the 7'th at Crystal Downs.  I'll check some of the topo information I have on them for comparison.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2002, 10:57:25 AM »
Awesome work, John!

Very enjoyable, thank you.

A great example of the cause and effect of architectural meddling!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2002, 11:25:00 AM »
Would someone who knows please say here:

When -- and, much more important, why -- did they take MacKenzie's very ragged- and jagged-edged bunkers and take all the raggeds and jaggeds out of them?

I'm looking, right now, at the old photos in David Owen's book -- and seeing these awesome, dunes-like bunkers . . . all of which have been replaced by perfectly smooth-edged things of no charm whatsoever.

Why'd they do that?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John_McMillan

Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2002, 05:47:57 PM »
I added some images of -

the approach to the 10'th green from the left side of the fairway

the approach to the 11'th green

the 16'th hole

the approach to the 18'th green, over the original fairway bunker.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2002, 08:49:58 PM »
What's everyone's vote on the dramatic change for the 16th? Doesn't the old hole seem kind of similar to the 12th?

Nice posture on your setup, John - good solid stance, nice straight back, maybe just a touch too hunched at the top, though.  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

David_Elvins

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Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2002, 09:29:22 PM »

Wow, That really is great stuff.  As someone who is such an amateur on the subject, I really found that incredible.  So well set out and easy to understand.  Is there any chance of adding the time of these changes?  

May I be so bold as to say that it really puts into perspective the recent changes to the course.  Hopefully seeing how much the course has changed from the original design over the years, will stop the use of the cliched phrase "Augusta (pre 1998)" in  ANGC bashing posts.

By the way, in your research were you able to find any evidences of positive changes that have added strategic merit to the course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

TEPaul

Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2002, 03:11:41 AM »
Thanks John, never seen so many glowing posts--no wonder!

#9 green is a real revelation--I had no idea!

How do you do that on a computer? Is there any way you could add a few pockets onto the trousers of that player?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2002, 04:04:00 AM »
John
Fantastic job. I especially like the look of the 9th. Is there anyway to view the approach to the 7th from the fairway? How about the tee shot on the 2nd, 5th and 14th each having large singular MacKenzie-esque bunkers to avoid? There was also a smaller bunker in the middle of the fairway on the 11th. What sources did you use?

You may have already seen it, but there is an excellent sketch of the course, I think done by RTJ in the 40's, in Wind's story of American Golf. The 7th, 10th and 16th had been altered but the rest of the course is pretty much original, including the bulging stream in front of the 15th that Bob Crosby mentioned.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2002, 04:55:16 AM »
I know golf sims like the Jack Nicklaus series and Links seem to been off limits around here sometimes, but it is very evident from this and from Jeremy Glenn's posts that there is credence to what those programs can hold for the run of the mill person that follows this forum.  Having played this course a few times in the past in a game setting has let me enjoy the work that John did on this, but also helps to give insight to what MacKenzie was trying to do at Augusta when he designed the original course.  

Hmm, maybe instead of lengthening the 18th, they should have just put that fairway bunker back in and got rid of the two out there now.

Excellent job as always John.

Chris
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_McMillan

Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2002, 06:39:07 AM »
David, re the time of the changes -

Off the top of my head, I can come within a year or two of the changes:  
#7 was the first - Byron Nelson drove the green in one of the early Masters (I think it was 1937), and the green was moved back and bunkered.
#10 green was moved by Perry Maxwell (who also did #7), in 1938 - one complaint was that the original green had drainage problems, so Maxwell moved the green 70 yards back to a ridge.
#16 was redone by RT Jones Sr in 1948
the #11 tee was moved back by the new #10 green in the early 50's (1951?)
the "Hogan bunker" was added to #15 in the mid/late 50's
I'm not sure when the bunkers were added to #17, or taken out of #18.  

Tom -

I pieced together the course from a lot of different sources.  David Owen's and Frank Christian's books were important for their photos, Geoff's "Golden Age" book had some old photos, Mackenzie's sketches and descriptions of the holes in the first Masters tournament program, the original green plan for the 10'th hole, Charles Price's book on the Bobby Jones and the Masters, plus reading snipets from golfer bios that mentioned the Masters tournament in its early years.

Re the 15'th hole -

The shape of the water hazard has evolved some through the years.  Some of Mackenzie's original drawings of the course show it is a stream which cuts across the 15'th, 17'th, 7'th and 2'nd holes.  The photo of the hole in Owen's book shows the hazard shaped a little more squarely than its current shape, but my decision was driven most by Mackenzie's description of the hole printed in the first Masters tournament program, "A pond in front of the green provides the penalty for the long player who fails to make a perfect second shot."  It's for that reason I chose to represent the hazard more as a pond than as a creek.

Dan Kelly -

I'm not sure on the evolution of the bunker style, but I can make a guess.  If you look at pictures from Masters tournaments in the 1940's/1950's, the bunkers at Augusta National had "fringes" - for about a foot's width around the bunkers, the grass was grown 5 or 6 inches high.  My guess is that as the course got pretty for TV in the late 50's/early 60's and eliminated the rough and greened up the place, it was deemed that the fringes didn't belong, but that the sharp edges on the bunkers would keep some of the 3-d appearence that the longer grass produced.  Maybe someone else has more specific details.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2002, 06:59:12 AM »
Here's a little bit of interesting trivia regarding Maxwell's redesign of ANGC's hole #7. It was my belief that the redesign of Gulph Mill's #8 green and bunkering by Maxwell was a copy of his green and bunker redesign at ANGC. The greenside bunker scheme is the same and the green basically is too except he flipped the green around so the quadrants are in different places.

Or so I thought our's was a copy of ANGC's. But now it seems Maxwell did ours at least three years earlier so their's is a copy of our's!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2002, 07:06:42 AM »
Those who are interested in the old 9th green should take a look at the 1932 aerial photograph of ANGC that you'll find just prior to page 35 in David Owen's book.

The green was not actually boomerang-shaped. To my eyes, it's shaped like the head of a cat with extraordinarily long ears. (I asked a woman here at the office what she thought it looked like. At first she said a rabbit, then a kitty -- and then a sports bra! And she's right.)

It's the damnedest-looking green you ever saw. I wonder if the pin ever went way up front, in one of the skinny ear/strap sections.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John_McMillan

Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2002, 07:47:15 AM »
Dan -

You're right - the "elbow" of the boomerang is swolen, so it does look more like a cat's head.  Which side of the "ear strap" are you talking about?  If it's the right (as you're facing the green), that's the current green, and the front part of that is a false front - the area where short approaches spin way back into the fairway, so you can't get a pin there.  For the left side - the area that is today's second bunker - pins would be "fun."  The putt I showed on the graphic can also be made in reverse - from the right side to the left, banked around the raised portion of the "cat's head."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David_Elvins

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Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2002, 08:04:43 AM »

John,
Thank you fo the reply.  Is there an aproximate time frame for the 17th hole bunkers?  Also is there a chance that someone could be so kind as to post the original photos from David Owen's book.  If it is too much hassel or infringing on copyright then don't worry.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Brian_Belden

Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2002, 07:44:12 AM »
John,

Nice work. I like everything except the comments on the 15th. I'm not sure that i agree that a shot missing the green should be rewarded. The right side of the 15th is somewhat of a "bail out" area. Should a player be rewarded for not suucessfully executing? I think that if  the hole is as you say a par 4/5, someone who tries to play for the reward and is not successful at his attempt should not be rewarded by having his ball bouncing back to the green off a mound. And conversly I think the new bunker serves as just reward for someone who attempts a shot but is not successful in his attempt. IMO.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

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Re: Lost Shots at Augusta National
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2002, 09:07:54 AM »
John -

I had always thought that Maxwell did the changes at 17 at the same time he did 7 and 10.  I recall reading somewhere that Cliff Roberts thought all of those holes were too easy for the pros and he had them "fixed" at the same time.  Sorry, I don't have a source.  I'll look through my stuff.

I don't like Maxwell's changes.  I have always thought it ironical that Maxwell was chosen because he was MacK's former partner (and, presumably most in sync with MacK's design philosophy), yet Maxwell's changes to 7, 10 and 17[?]totally undermined the kinds of strategic options MacK was seeking for those the holes.

The additional irony is that RTJ - who had little in common with MacK and the the Golden Agers - made changes to ANGC that actually enhanced in many ways MacK's strategic objectives on a number of holes.  I'm thinking particularly of his changes to the green surrounds on 11.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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