The beginning of the use of PRE-construction topo maps?

[TEPaul]

Can anyone establish when or where or by whom comprehensive PRE-construction topo countour maps were first used in golf course architecture and specifically who may have first used one to ROUTE a golf course without FIRST seeing the site?

To me somehow Ross seems to be the most likely candidate on the latter. The earliest PRE-construction topo survey map I'm aware of at the moment seems to be Merion East in early 1911. We don't have it; we only have some written referernces to it from Merion East's architect, Hugh Wilson.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Not sure the answer, but we do have the April 1915 pre-construction topo map with holes delineated or Cobb's Creek.

It's quite huge and ridiculously cool.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Not sure the answer, but we do have the April 1915 pre-construction topo map with holes delineated or Cobb's Creek.

It's quite huge and ridiculously cool.

[TEPaul]

Well, that's 1915 and I know Merion had one in 1911. Maybe it was sort of a Wilson and Flynn thing but I am also reminded of that Macdonald letter to Merion's search committee in June 1910 in which he says he really can't tell them much more about a course on the property without a topographical map of the property. At that point all Macdonald had done was NGLA and I've been told by George Bahto that the only kind of preconstruction topo mapping that he's aware of was sort of localized contour lines Raynor probably drew on particular landforms apparently if it seemed they had to change something or move some dirt. But that does not exactly mean that NGLA did not use a PRE-construction topo map of the property, it just means that one has not been found.

Here's another historic architectural question-----was Macdonald the first architect to partner as closely as he did with an engineer/surveyor (Raynor)?

Crump had one on March 1913 for Pine Valley----eg PREconstruction.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...

this is from Ian Andrew's website and it refers to Harry Colt.

I don't know if this will help or not...

"Colt was the first to create planting plans, construction details and field instructions. He even ran an office with Alison using correspondence to stay involved from abroad."

If it is of use, here is the link to his history of golf course architecture portion.

http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007/03/1900-1910-part-1-of-2-out-of-heathlands.html

[TEPaul]

Mac:

I spoke to Ian about this last night and as far as Colt is concerned he's just assumed Colt may've been first in some of these things because so many have assumed it but Ian isn't aware of anything specifically from Colt that he was first----yet. 

[TEPaul]

I have a hunch that this particular subject and certainly the answers to it is an area that very few, even including some of the best historians and architect/historians have every really considered the ramifications of, particularly historically.

There is another facet here as well, that sort of amazes me that none of the ultra architecture nerds and architectural history nerds on here and elsewhere have ever really considered or tried to do. And that is when you have a PRE-construction topo survey map of a golf course, including ones such as Merion East and Pine Valley, you can actually take it and go out there and pretty much determine and prove exactly what was man-made and what wasn't (what is natural).

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...

have you narrowed down the possible dates on when this first might have been used?

[Paul_Turner]

Mac:

I spoke to Ian about this last night and as far as Colt is concerned he's just assumed Colt may've been first in some of these things because so many have assumed it but Ian isn't aware of anything specifically from Colt that he was first----yet.  

Tom

Ian of course knows this..... the earliest known Colt routing map is from Toronto: 1911.  It's not a pure topo map, not having detailed contour lines, but it does have the natural features drawn such as ravines, hills, ridges etc.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom.

The archie nerds at Cobbs including Matt D have done this and very much as you suspected at Merion there was VERY little dirt moved and I can show you every spot it was done and why if we can ever get you back to west Philly. 

[Brad Klein]

Don't know the year(s), but Donald Ross did the occasional routing plans from topo maps (without a site visit) that wealthy clients/guests at Pinehurst brought him from around the eastern half of the US.

It was common to have a surveyor complete plans for the golf course (see my Ross book where I show [page 116] the original 1915 topo survey for White Bear yacht Club), but it's hard to know if the survey or the routing came first.

Following the hiring of engineer/surveyor Walter Irving Johnson Jr. in the fall of 1920 as his full time planner, Ross' plans became far more topographically sophisticated and regularly included contour maps and cross-sections, replete with before/after profiles -- the equivalent of construction drawings for cuts and fills.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

In 1914, Golf Illustrated did a series of articles describing in great detail the holes of NGLA. They presented photographs of models of each hole which the caption below them states that they were prepared from "detailed topographical" drawings. Is it possible that these drawings were done by Raynor for Macdonald in the design process?

[RJ_Daley]

Stuart Bendelow mentions that in the time frame of 1905 that Tom Bendelow had already been recognized as having designed some 500 courses with his association with Spaulding co.  Adding this:

"Bendelow's design features evolved along with the game.  Where Topograpic[sic] maps existed, he used them to enhance his layouts."  

I think on some of the major projects, like East Lake, he probably had topos.  Then, when he took over American Park Builders from Langford in 1917, he probably used topos quite a bit.  The fact that he made plasticine models, probably meant he needed topos to transfer the terrain data from the elevation data of the topo to the 3-d model.  

[TEPaul]

Brad Klein:

Thanks for the info on Ross. There's a numerical typo in your third paragraph.

At the moment the earliest PRE-construction topo I'm aware of seems to be Merion East's early 1911.

Phil:

Those are some interesting points and questions. Let me do some research on them. I'm beginning to get the feeling that given  Macdonald may've been the very first golf architect who completely partnered with a surveyor/engineer the answer to this question very well might be NGLA and Macdonald and Raynor even if there is no known comprehensive PRE-construction topo survey map extant. But the reason for that may be fairly explainable----eg not that they didn't have and use one but only why it is gone now. This very thing may also be one of the specific reasons why Macdonald referred to himself in his autobiography as the first known golf course architect. The only other reason I can think of why he would say that was because he was actually copying pre-existing golf architectural principles.

[TEPaul]

RJ:

What you said there seems to be just a reference to some kind of topoing, not an example of an actual PRE-construction topo survey map as is the Merion 1911 reference. However, that Bendelow topo reference predates it by six years sure is interesting. I hope more can be found out about Bendelow in this vein. Don't forget though, this is about PRE-construction topo map use.

[BCrosby]

RJ -

Your mention of East Lake is interesting. There was a housing development plan done (circa 1905) for the area. I think it was done just before the Atlanta Athletic Club bought the property to build the original course, the Bendelow East Lake. I'm pretty sure it's not a topo. I'll look at it again next time I am there. Other than that, I'm not aware of any pre-Bendelow topos. Or any topos after Bendelow for that matter. I would love to see anything you have found.

Bob

[Ian Andrew]

1918
Onondaga Golf & Country Club
Walter Travis

It's the oldest routing on topo that I have in my files.
It’s hard to see, even on the original, the holes are in pencil.
Only a few of the holes are drawn around the future clubhouse site.

I've supplied a small section for clarity.

[Ian Andrew]

1911
Toronto Golf Club
Colt

There is no topo, but the features are clearly illustrated on the plan
The title calls the drawing a sketch plan of the club.

Once again I have supplied a detail of the plan

[Ian Andrew]

"Colt was the first to create planting plans, construction details and field instructions. He even ran an office with Alison using correspondence to stay involved from abroad."

Planting areas are on the Toronto Sketch Plan (above)  and I do have his field instructions and bunker construction details for Toronto Golf. So that I can confirm for 1911.

Was he the earliest ... again I have relied on books for that fact ... and I'm less sure now than I was then.


Some interesting questions to be answered:

I always thought that Macdonald used a Topo of NLGA produced by Raynor.

I thought I understood that Raynor's father surveyed Shinnecock Hills when Raynor was a teenager.

[TEPaul]

Ian:

That's interesting to me that you think that 1918 routing on topo is the oldest you have in your files. If I'm recalling this correctly, did you not take a photo of that original March 1913 Pine Valley stick routing that hung in the superintendent's office? If so that one is a topo survey map (with contour lines) of the property that George Crump drew his first stick routing on before Colt first arrived at Pine Valley around the end of May/beginning of June 1913. When Colt arrived and spent perhaps a full week with Crump at Pine Valley obviously they both worked on another copy of the same Pine Valley topo survey map (both have surveyer's dates of March 1913 on them). The latter is the one I have always referred to as "The Blue/Red Line topo map." That was the topo survey map that Crump clearly continued to use and mark architectural features on (in red) for perhaps the next four years or so as he continued to slowly design up and bring various sections of the course into play.

[Ian Andrew]

March 1913
Pine Valley
Crump

I'm getting old.  
I still think the answer is in the UK.

Sorry about the quality, but I had to manipulate the image to get it to show.

[TEPaul]

Ian:

Thank you for the 1913 Pine Valley PRE-construction topo map. To date it is the earliest one I have seen even if we do know that Merion East had one in Feb. 1911. We don't have it but we certainly do have very direct references (in Feb. 1911) to it by the course's architect.


Do you suppose that Toronto GC 1911 drawing (not a topo) was done before the course was constructed or afterwards?

I suspect you're right that we should look abroad for the answer to this thread but so far I have seen nothing earlier or even heard of something PRE-construction referred to over there or over here for that matter.

[RJ_Daley]

Bob C., I haven't found a thing, and I'm not actually looking.  

I just remembered mention of topos in Stuarts book on Tom Bendelow.  Considering he was credited with some 500 courses by late 1900-10s, I'm just imagining some of those were on land were a client mailed him a topo, and then he laid it out on paper and after a site visit, turned the topo over to a local construction co., to follow his directions written right on a topo.  I have no evidence, just surmise...

[RJ_Daley]

gotta go, but was wondering just how prevalent were topos in that era?  perhaps only a few plats within municipalities or where the gov was planning a big project, i.e. park or large piece of land project, where a topo would have even been ordered.  The process of doing topos would have been very tedious in those days, I imagine.

[TEPaul]

RJ:

Your first question in the last post is essentially what this thread is about and what it's trying to determine.

At this point, it's probably appropriate to ask and to supply some answers to the question-----what difference does it make if a drawing or a map (of a golf course or anything else) has topo (contour lines) on it or not?

I would say it matters a lot because it begins to show the first time golf architects were beginning to consider courses and routings and their designs PRE-CONSTRUCTION not just in the TWO dimensions (length and width) of a non-topo map but for the first time PRE-CONSTRUCTION in THREE dimensions (that includes the dimension of vertical height (the topo contour lines)).

Would this be coincident and somewhat simultaneous with the onset of greater earth movement in golf course architecture and essentially greater man-made "architecture" or at least the expectation of it?

Probably so.