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Kevin Lynch

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Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« on: August 05, 2010, 11:54:45 AM »
I know it's a real longshot, but has anyone ever played Coudersport Golf Club in Coudersport, PA (former home of Adelphia Communications)?  The "Better With Time" Thread got me thinking about this course, combined with the "Public Golf in PA" thread.  It's a very small public course in the middle of nowhere, but I played it numerous times, as I had an audit client there for years (not Adelphia).

The first time I played it, I hated it and thought it was the most ridiculous thing I had ever seen.  But over years of playing, I really came to adore this course.  9 Holes were built in 1935 (designer unknown) and an additional 9 were added in the last 30 years.

I imagine if you were just passing through and played it once, you may have left with a negative impression, but I was able to appreciate it much more over time. 

Aesthetically, I love it because it climbs and falls (precipitously at times) through a hillside of woods, and I saw my first black bear family as close as I ever want there.  Once, a playing companion yelled "Fore" to the herd of deer grazing on the hillside to the left of 10 fairway once.   “Did you expect them to understand that?”

Strategically, it is one of the sportiest courses I have ever played, with Huge Risk/Reward Tradeoffs everywhere.  Drivable Par Fours, Reachable Par 5s, all of which bring Eagle to Triple Bogey into play several times during the round.  Most greens are small, but have plenty of contour – some subtle, some obvious, including the first “biarritz” green I ever saw (adjacent to the Redan kick-board hillside).

There are a few throw-away holes, but for the most part, it is a course I enjoyed playing repeatedly. Anyway, was curious if anyone else had experienced this course.

Michael Huber

Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2010, 12:01:39 PM »
I have not, but I always wondered what a lot of those courses along Route 6 are like.  My girlfriend grew up near Warren, so I'd like to eventually give a lot of them a shot.  Have you played any other courses in that region?   I have to imagine some of those courses are pretty nice considering the amount of wealth that was up there at one point.   

Also, I'm glad you weren't involved in the adelphia audit  ;D

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2010, 12:57:30 PM »
I played the course several years ago and remember it as you described with many stategic holes, good used of a stream on the back 9, good elevation change on the front nine and start of the back nine.  I rember the biarritz 3rd green on the front nine.  I actually enjoyed the course and left after one play quite happy of my find.

Chris

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2010, 01:01:18 PM »
I have not played that one, but have played 2 others in the general vicinity; Scottish Heights GC (very fun), and Bavarian Hills GC, which was also a nice round.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2010, 01:02:40 PM »
I have not, but I always wondered what a lot of those courses along Route 6 are like.  My girlfriend grew up near Warren, so I'd like to eventually give a lot of them a shot.  Have you played any other courses in that region?   I have to imagine some of those courses are pretty nice considering the amount of wealth that was up there at one point.   

Also, I'm glad you weren't involved in the adelphia audit  ;D

Me too!  I worked on the Hospital Audit for years, and we would be the only people using the Hotels.  Once the Adelphia Fiasco hit, that town was swarming with out of towners.  

I have played a few in the NW Pennsylvania Region.  Given the topography, they are usually shorter courses with lots of elevation changes.  However, I'm one of these guys where aesthetics plays a big role, so I tend to enjoy these places, even if the architecture isn't the greatest.

In Warren, I like Blueberry Hill in Russell PA (near Warren).  It’s a little bit of a diamond in the rough.  It was designed by James Harrison and Fred Garbin, who were active in the Pittsburgh region in the 50s and 60s.  This course appeared on a few “hidden gem” threads on GCA.
http://www.blueberryhillgc.com/

If you’re near Warren and willing to venture a little north, try to find Elkdale in Salamanca, it’s pretty much the same type of topography, but a pleasure to play.  Another 10-15 minutes past that is Holiday Valley (or “Double Black Diamond” at Holiday Valley) in Ellicottville.  This is built on and around a ski resort.  The front 9 plays along the base of the hills, but the back nine is a breathtaking trip among the slopes (and was recently redesigned with great improvements).  If you go there, tell the Pro Steve Carney that I sent you his way (it may not get you far, but maybe he’ll be glad to see a reference coming from someone he’s given a few free rounds to).
http://www.holidayvalley.com/HolidayValley/info/golf.aspx

Going East along Route 6, I have played Kane Country Club.  This isn’t dug into the hills as much as others in the area and I’m not as big a fan, but you aren’t going to hate yourself for playing there.  Besides, I only played there once, so I may have missed something.  It’s actually one of the oldest courses in Western PA (1912).
http://www.kanecountryclub.com/

If you go up a little north on Route 219 from Kane into Bradford, there are two decent courses.  Penn Hills is a Private Walter Travis design, but they do give access on certain days to public players, so you could give it a try.  The Public Option is Pine Acres, which is another James Harrison design.  It features a number of shorter Par 4s, with nice use of elevation changes.  I’m a fan, but it may not be everyone’s cup of tea.
http://www.pineacrescc.com/

Continuing east, there is a little 9 holer in Smethport, but I’ve never been.  And then the next town is Coudersport, which I simply adore.  If you happen to venture to Coudersport, be sure to eat at Erways Family Restaurant.  It’s attached to Erway’s Farmer’s Market, so you can imagine how fresh the food is.

As you go through the town, you can see all the ornate, but vacated, buildings from the Rigas Era.  I’m not sure if there are any remnants left  of the Rees Jones Golf Course that was in construction at the time.  It’s about 7 or 8 miles outside of town, past the former Rigas Estate (on Rt 49).  I found it once and drove through the property.  I could see a number of greens that were mounded near the roadside, as well as a number of holes carved through the trees.  You could tell quite a bit of work was done prior to the project being abandoned.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2010, 02:09:51 PM »
Never been to the "Northern Tier" of PA but Coudersport GC looks very interesting. Take a tour:

http://www.coudersportgolfclub.net/10.html
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2010, 03:19:11 PM »
Kevin is an expert on this region.  A few years back, an escaped convict named Ralph "Bucky" Phillips hid out in this region, not far from many of these courses.  The story turned tragic, but brought the Allegheny region to the fore in national news.

The best way I can describe the region is a lot of good golf for little money.  There are no name designers, with the exception of the Travis 9 at Penn Hills (which also has a Clifford Wendehack clubhouse--Winged Foot's clubhouse archie).  What there is, is solid golf at incredibly reasonable prices, gorgeous countryside, friendly, reliable, helpful people and tranquility.

If you're ever in the mood for a golf getaway to a number of courses that will leave you with a good score (no championship designs here), a full belly, a calmed spirit and a visual (especially in the Fall) smorgasbord of memorable vistas, consider the Warren, PA region.

2010 will be the year that Kevin and I go to Coudersport...I guarantee it!!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

JohnV

Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2010, 05:54:35 PM »
About 6 years ago, I did the course rating for Coudersport when they joined the WPGA and played it.  It was fun and funky as are a lot of unknown little courses in Western PA.  There were some interesting rules issues with a dirt road and ditches  on either side of it that ran through the front 9.  They had me rewrite their local rules at the time.

I'd agree with Richard's comments on Bavarian Hills and Kevin's on Kane.  Further west is the Country Club of Meadville which is quite good.

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2010, 10:01:31 PM »
About 6 years ago, I did the course rating for Coudersport when they joined the WPGA and played it.  It was fun and funky as are a lot of unknown little courses in Western PA.  There were some interesting rules issues with a dirt road and ditches  on either side of it that ran through the front 9.  They had me rewrite their local rules at the time.

I'd agree with Richard's comments on Bavarian Hills and Kevin's on Kane.  Further west is the Country Club of Meadville which is quite good.

Western PA does have a lot of unknown fun golf courses like:

Culbertson's Golf Resort, a 1931 Bendelow hidden gem in Edinboro, PA
St. Mary's CC a classic Dev Emmet course on wild terain
Treasure Lake GC - Gold & Silver in Sabula, PA
Eagle Ridge GC a James Harrison design in Curwensville,
Foxburg CC very 0ld 9 hole course, quirky greens / bunkering loads of fun
St. Jude CC former private course now public with at least 9  holes by Loeffle & McGlynn
Wanago CC another former private course now public with 9 bendelow holes and 9 Ross - very hilly terrain

I know there is more that I am not thinking of, but this is a good list for now.

Chris


Kevin Lynch

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2010, 10:52:37 AM »
Never been to the "Northern Tier" of PA but Coudersport GC looks very interesting. Take a tour:

http://www.coudersportgolfclub.net/10.html

I only wish that those pictures could have done justice to the nature of the holes.  Some of the angles they used for the shots were odd, but I realize it’s hard to capture a hole’s essence in one shot.

One of my favorite holes has to be #3, which is a true “hate to love’ story.  It’s only 322 yards and all downhill.  As a young buck in the mid 90s, I saw it on the card and from the tee and presumed I would easily try to drive it.  It was a wonderful learning experience in the value of “fast & firm” to defend a hole, a great Biarritz Green, and how to use a Redan.

After bounding 3 balls off the sloped fairway onto the left road, it dawned on me that I would eother need to lay back to the flat area, or account for the firm, sloped conditions.  Over the years, I eventually found the value of a stinger cut 2-iron off the tee which flew and rolled to form an inverted “S” pattern.

Firm & Fast also defended the green, as anything that came up short or left was kicked over the road.  You ether needed to hit a very crisp iron or use the Redan kickboard slope to the right of the green.  This was especially important given the overall right-to-left slope of the fairway, so you had a tendency to pull the ball. 

And then the Biarritz green was (and still is) one of the best I’ve ever played.  Three putts were common and sometimes even first putts into the bunker that was in the inside left of the Biarritz.

Here are a few of my pictures of number 3.  The different shots show the pin in both the front & back of the Biarritz.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2010, 11:34:05 AM »
About 6 years ago, I did the course rating for Coudersport when they joined the WPGA and played it.  It was fun and funky as are a lot of unknown little courses in Western PA.  There were some interesting rules issues with a dirt road and ditches  on either side of it that ran through the front 9.  They had me rewrite their local rules at the time.

JVB – I was going to say I remembered that, but then realized how old I am getting.  Actually, when I started playing there in 1995, they had no Course Rating, and during my years visiting there for work (1995-2002), they had their initial ratings done (67.7 / 115).  Looks like you went out and re-rated the course for them several years later.   There definitely was a need to expand on their local rules, so you must have been the man to do it.

When it was initially rated in the late 90s, I always thought it would be very difficult to account for the big risk/reward trade-offs and amount of trouble that can grab you.  The course is very short, but the temptation to “go for it” can add a lot of color to your scorecard in a hurry.  I imagine these types are more challenging for you vs. a "straightforward" course.

However, your experience has me curious about something I’ve never been sure of.  Who actually determines the relative handicap of the holes (for stroke allocation)?   Is it the Rating Association or is it up to the discretion of the course?   On a number of courses (usually smaller courses), I’ve always found it odd that the number 1 rated hole is often a Par 5. For example, Coudersport’s #9 is a straightforward 500 yarder that is reachable with no hazard trouble, but is rated hardest. 

It seems counterintuitive to me.  I would think any Par 4 (or par 3 for that matter) would be harder, simply because the length of the shot to reach the green in regulation is likely going to be easiest/shortest on a Par 5.

I’m thinking the allocation may be left to the courses, because Coudersport’s “pre-rating” handicaps and “post-rating” handicaps are the same.  It’s entirely possible I’m missing something, but any insight from you would be appreciated.

Michael Huber

Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2010, 11:36:12 AM »
Kevin,

How many of the holes there are on the hillside, and how many are actually inthe valley floor?

Also, I was just at a wedding rehersal dinner at Blueberry Hill last weekend, but did not play it.  I have played 9 holes at nearby Cable Hollow though.  

I never would have expected an extensive thread on Northern PA golf, but this is a good one!

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2010, 12:11:58 PM »
Kevin,

How many of the holes there are on the hillside, and how many are actually inthe valley floor?

Also, I was just at a wedding rehersal dinner at Blueberry Hill last weekend, but did not play it.  I have played 9 holes at nearby Cable Hollow though.  

I never would have expected an extensive thread on Northern PA golf, but this is a good one!

For a "longshot" edition, I didn't expect much discussion either, but the other threads got me thinking about my days in Coudersport.  The way I look at it, while most of us here love to play and appreciate the nationally known courses, the truth is that most of our day-to-day exposure is at lesser-known courses and regions.  Even if it's a smaller group of people, it's still fun to discuss the architectural chops of the lesser-knowns (and sometimes you find a hole like #3 that would hold up anywhere in a great Short Par 4 discussion).

The hills come into play all throughout the course, but when you talk about a hole that plays "on" the hillside the whole length (like #3), there are only a few.  Number 4 is similar to number 3 (Drivable, but with a big Risk, and tight with a severely sloped fairway).  Number 11 is a short flip-shot Par 3 cut along the hillside as well.  Pull your wedge and it may kick down the hill 50 yards or so.  To some extent, the approach on 10 is similar, as the green falls off precipitously to the right, but the tee shot doesn't have a severely sloped fairway.

Other than that, you're generally not playing "along the hillside" dealing with crazy sidehill lies the entire length of the hole.  You have a number of elevated tees from the hillside where you drive down into the valley (and vice versa) with the most extreme being #12's tee shot.

On other holes, the slope of the hill is used to partially obscure your landing area, but won't have a large impact.  There are probably only 3 or 4 holes that play exclusively along the valley floor.  Still, with all the elevation change, the course is truly walkable, as there are no big treks from green to tee.

I've never played Cable Hollow, and haven't really heard much about it.  The other course usually lumped into the Warren Area discussion is Jackson Valley, which I haven't played either. 

If you'd like a nice overnight trip with the Girlfriend (assuming she's understanding), you could go to Peek 'n Peak in Findley Lake (in "corner" of NY near PA Border) just off Rt 17/86.  The "Upper Course" held a Nationwide Tour Event for several years (significant elevation change), while the "Lower Course" is relatively flat at the base of the valley.  I've heard the owner is having some financial difficulty, and they've been offering some pretty big discounts (Overnight Stay with round at each course for $150 or so).  The rooms are Ski Lodge accomodations - but I haven't stayed there, so I don't know which version of "Hot-Tub Time Machine" you'll get.


Chris_Blakely

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2010, 12:13:10 PM »
Kevin,

How many of the holes there are on the hillside, and how many are actually inthe valley floor?

Also, I was just at a wedding rehersal dinner at Blueberry Hill last weekend, but did not play it.  I have played 9 holes at nearby Cable Hollow though.  

I never would have expected an extensive thread on Northern PA golf, but this is a good one!



Michael,


Blueberry Hill is a solid course especially the James Gilmore Harrison 9 (I believer this is the front 9 on the course).



As for Coudersport, most of the back 9 if I remember correctly is on level terrain - say from hole 14 on.  These are the holes visible when you dirve by the course.

Chris

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2010, 02:50:28 PM »
About 6 years ago, I did the course rating for Coudersport when they joined the WPGA and played it.  It was fun and funky as are a lot of unknown little courses in Western PA.  There were some interesting rules issues with a dirt road and ditches  on either side of it that ran through the front 9.  They had me rewrite their local rules at the time.

I'd agree with Richard's comments on Bavarian Hills and Kevin's on Kane.  Further west is the Country Club of Meadville which is quite good.

Western PA does have a lot of unknown fun golf courses like:

Culbertson's Golf Resort, a 1931 Bendelow hidden gem in Edinboro, PA
St. Mary's CC a classic Dev Emmet course on wild terain
Treasure Lake GC - Gold & Silver in Sabula, PA
Eagle Ridge GC a James Harrison design in Curwensville,
Foxburg CC very 0ld 9 hole course, quirky greens / bunkering loads of fun
St. Jude CC former private course now public with at least 9  holes by Loeffle & McGlynn
Wanago CC another former private course now public with 9 bendelow holes and 9 Ross - very hilly terrain

I know there is more that I am not thinking of, but this is a good list for now.

Chris,

I am playing Wanango CC (instead of Pocono Manor) next Tuesday on my way out East. I have also played Hunter's Station and Cross Creek near Oil City, further West. In September I will play Treasure Lake, DuBois CC and Punxsetawney CC. Finally, I had more FUN playing Foxburg CC than many of the courses that I have played.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 02:53:02 PM by Richard Hetzel »
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2010, 03:07:40 PM »


Chris,

I am playing Wanango CC (instead of Pocono Manor) next Tuesday on my way out East. I have also played Hunter's Station and Cross Creek near Oil City, further West. In September I will play Treasure Lake, DuBois CC and Punxsetawney CC. Finally, I had more FUN playing Foxburg CC than many of the courses that I have played.



Richard,

You will enjoy Wanango CC - very hilly terrain in spots.  Kind of FAR AWAY from Pocono Manor, I would have never thought that that would be your range of couress you could play.  As I said abover, it is 9 holes of Ross and 9 more of Bendelow.  I have never made the treck to Hunter's Stations - could not bring myself to do it for the one major drop shot hole.

Both courses at Treasure Lake were surpisingly good.  I like the Gold course more - more hilly than the Silver.  I have not played DuBois CC, from the pictures and the website, I was not inspired to seek it our over other courses on my list.

Thanks,
Chris

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2010, 03:16:24 PM »

Michael Huber

Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2010, 03:18:28 PM »
I also preferred the Gold course over the silver course @ treasure lake.  The silver course, from what I can remember, had a few too many goofy holes, and the one ultra narrow par 5 made me want to shoot myself in the face.  

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2010, 03:29:27 PM »
1.  Peek n Peak has very modern condos.  I stayed in one about five years ago and they were quite nice.  Unfortunately, the Cleveland-based owner has filed for bankruptcy in Ohio, so who knows what the future holds.

2.  blueberry hill here:  http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Blueberry%20Hill/
Penn hills here:  http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/PennHills%20Club/
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Steve Wilson

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2010, 08:05:03 PM »
I have often wondered what a coverage map of golf courses in the United States would look like if we compiled a roster of all the courses we had played.  I imagine the percentage would be astounding. Approaching 90% if not surpassing that level.  Maybe when I retire I'll start a thread concerning the GCA Coverage Map.
 
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2010, 08:39:30 PM »
I also preferred the Gold course over the silver course @ treasure lake.  The silver course, from what I can remember, had a few too many goofy holes, and the one ultra narrow par 5 made me want to shoot myself in the face.  

How tight are the gold and silver courses? Maybe I will drop DuBois and play one of those. I also enjoy Scottish Heights as well.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2010, 08:40:54 PM »
I did, in fact, play 18 holes Wanango CC this morning. Except for the thick FOG, I enjoyed the course very much! I will post pictures this evening or tomorrow evening.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Phil_the_Author

Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2010, 09:06:29 PM »
Chris,

You noted that Wanango "is 9 holes of Ross and 9 more of Bendelow." Ross designed his 9 in 1912 and Bendelow did his in the mid-teens. It was in 1919 that TILLY was brought in to redesign the entire course and so it is actually far more Tilly than either Ross or Bendelow...

Michael Huber

Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2010, 09:15:37 AM »
I also preferred the Gold course over the silver course @ treasure lake.  The silver course, from what I can remember, had a few too many goofy holes, and the one ultra narrow par 5 made me want to shoot myself in the face.  

How tight are the gold and silver courses? Maybe I will drop DuBois and play one of those. I also enjoy Scottish Heights as well.

Well, the courses are more or less cut out of the woods, so it gets pretty tight at parts.  The gold, at least as I recall, was a little bit more open.  The par 5s are pretty fun.  I'm not sure I'd want to play either the gold or silver every day, but if you are in the Dubois region it's worth a play.

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Longshot Edition - Coudersport Golf Club (NW PA)?
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2010, 09:28:04 AM »
Chris,

You noted that Wanango "is 9 holes of Ross and 9 more of Bendelow." Ross designed his 9 in 1912 and Bendelow did his in the mid-teens. It was in 1919 that TILLY was brought in to redesign the entire course and so it is actually far more Tilly than either Ross or Bendelow...

Have you played the course and seen what is on the ground there???????

Chris

P.S:  I have! ;)

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