[Eric Smith]

Can you list my favorite courses?  I'll give you a hint, Pacific Dunes is #1. 

..and you bought the bag to prove it.

[Jud_T]

Off the top of my head I really like the scale and expansiveness of Whistling Straits.  

Oh- one more thought: Scale?  You've got to be kidding me...Some of the dunes at Kingsley simply have to be seen to be believed...And they're NATURALLY OCCURRING!!    

[Terry Lavin]

What can be done to rewrite the Kingsley Club Narrative?  If this question means, what can the club do to alter the opinion of raters to the degree necessary to put the course in the upper echelon of Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal, I'd say, "not much".  What can the club do?  Ask the architect to alter the course to eliminate the quirk that the raters seem to dislike?  If they do that, they'll antagonize the people who prize the quirk.  They could mount a big public relations campaign and kowtow to the raters in an effort to move up a few slots.  To what end?  If KC wants to beat the bushes for more members, I guess a better rating might help at the margins, but let's face it, the cow's out of the barn.

[Tim Pitner]

What can be done to rewrite the Kingsley Club Narrative?  If this question means, what can the club do to alter the opinion of raters to the degree necessary to put the course in the upper echelon of Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal, I'd say, "not much".  What can the club do?  Ask the architect to alter the course to eliminate the quirk that the raters seem to dislike?  If they do that, they'll antagonize the people who prize the quirk.  They could mount a big public relations campaign and kowtow to the raters in an effort to move up a few slots.  To what end?  If KC wants to beat the bushes for more members, I guess a better rating might help at the margins, but let's face it, the cow's out of the barn.

Further, why does anyone outside of (perhaps) Mike DeVries and the owners of Kingsley Club care? 

[Brad Fleischer]

Enjoying the debate.

I will give my two humble cents. One I could care less about the rankings but I know some people and other members do care and let's face it so does the general public which in return creates conversation which in return can attract new members which in the end is what really counts . Which is why owners and the like want a "ranked" course. Unfortunatley in todays day and age rankings matter . A perfect example would be Parker and his ratings which he just added a "new" mark above 100 . Society is geared towards rankings plain and simple. Me  I prefer to look at the rankings as a guide and not the end all but it does make good debate doesn't it .

I think Kingsley needs to be played more than once as do a lot of other courses to see there merits but even more so here. Another thing I can't quite understand on the hard front is if you use the proper tee's or a mix of tee's I really don't think it's as hard as some think it is if it's set up for normal play. Can it be turned up a few notches sure it can but so can every other course if you really wanted it to. I have seen low handicaps piss themselves after there first 18 and than sing the courses praises after 36. I have seen hacks love the fact they can run the ball low (not on purpose) and smile at the result. Your's truly who's game resembles Jekyl and Hyde knows when to move up and smiles when a bad shot is rewarded as well as a good shot to. I have also cursed at a good shot as well but to me thats what makes the place fun . It plays different everyday and I don't get bored with it and to me that's the key.

So do I think it's better than some of the course's mentioned that I have played "yes" and That's why I joined . May other's think differently ? Yes and honestly that's fine with me as well . So for now I will just sit back and enjoy reading where this goes as I smile thinking when I will arrive at the first tee again

[Jud_T]

Brad- couple of points:

1.  Parker added a new rating above 100?  Guess I should read my mail a bit more closely!  

2.  Excellent point about the learning curve at Kingsley.  It's probably as big as any course I've had the pleasure of playing more than a few times.  Anyone who says the back nine is a bit of a letdown, for instance, is a dead ringer not to have played the course more than once or twice...A bonus for the members, but not necessarily helpful to raters and one time guests.  OK, I'll shut up now....

[Brad Fleischer]

Brad- couple of points:

1.  Parker added a new rating above 100?  Guess I should read my mail a bit more closely!  

2.  Excellent point about the learning curve at Kingsley.  It's probably as big as any course I've had the pleasure of playing more than a few times.  Anyone who says the back nine is a bit of a letdown, for instance, is a dead ringer not to have played the course more than once or twice...A bonus for the members, but not necessarily helpful to raters and one time guests.  OK, I'll shut up now....

Jud

Yep insane huh. Looking forward to teeing it up with you out there one day .

Brad

[George Freeman]

There is hardly a new thing to be added on this site regarding Kingsley Club.  Most members of this site love the course, to varying degrees for all of its quirk, strategy, variety, brilliant routing, ambiance, etc.

Yet, most on this site share in the chorus of Kingsley Club being underrated by the publications.  Whether it be the absurdity of not being in the Golf Digest Top 100 or the arguably low position in the Golfweek Modern Rankings (I've heard some say Kingsley should be as high as Ballyneal and Sand Hills).

It did get an honorable mention in the Golf Blog Top 10 Courses of the Decade.  (6 Doaks on there.)

Eric,

What 6?

[Mark Pritchett]

Pacific Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
Ballyneal
Rock Creek
Sebonack

[Joshua Pettit]

Pacific Dunes is much more deliberately restrained than Lost Dunes (or Kingsley), at the client's request, and that is just one reason it is appreciated by more people.

Tom,

Can you provide a little insight as to something you lobbied for at Pacific Dunes that Mr. Keiser shot down, or perhaps something significant you would have done differently had it been the same piece of land with a different client (say Mr. Shearer instead)?  Did you enact restraint from the get go, or was it a learning process?

At Lost Dunes, aside from the inherent environmental restraints, did you have all the artistic capital you desired? 

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