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Mike H

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Camargo Club
« on: August 03, 2010, 08:56:06 PM »
I recently played with fellow GCAer Steve Kline at Camargo for a practice round for the Am qualifier.  When Camargo was removated/restored many years back what changes were made? 

Steve also brought up an interesting topic on the par three 8th hole "The Biarritz".  Was the fairway leading up to the green at one point part of the green?

Chris Cupit

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2010, 09:15:36 PM »
Camargo is absolutely phenomenal. I hope you enjoyed it.  From what I understand the front part of eight was never mowed to green height.  I had a member host and, I believe, the GM confirm that as I had the same question.

Camargo may have the best collection of par threes in the country.  :o

 (OK that may be a bit much but they are top 10 for sure).  The short and eden are just stunning and I even liked them better than the redan (which was an interesting take with the split level) and the biarritz.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2010, 09:19:26 PM »
No Biarritz holes were built with the front section as putting green.

They also were built when balls could not carry 200 yards in the air but the fronts played fast and firm without irrigation. Thus, the APPROACH was bunkered. Threfore, maintainng the front at green heights today is the best way to recreate the architect's intent. What fairway is faster and fimer thna putting green? Howeve, the oin sold RARELY be placedup front, IMHO. (Except for outings and Tuesdays..)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 06:55:18 AM by Bill Brightly »

JLahrman

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2010, 09:33:33 PM »
Not sure the extent of the changes, I'm sure someone can fill us in, but I echo that it is a phenomenal course.

john_stiles

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2010, 11:17:20 PM »

There is a nice redan at Camargo as well.

Steve Kline

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2010, 06:57:12 AM »
As always Camargo was a real treat to play the last two days. Despite bad summer weather everyone is having the course was in very good shape. The fairways were running nicely although not as much in front of the greens. The greens were in good condition but a litter softer than past years (but by no means soft as you would leave a moderate ball mark).

As a teenager I played the course a few times I never understand what the big deal was. Now I get it! The par 3s are fantastic and it is hard for me to imagine a course having four better par 3s. The 5th (Eden) was playing about 180 yards yesterday. Short of the green are two very deep bunkers and there is one right and one behind. Camargo has huge greens. While this one is large it is very wide and not as deep as the others. The green has a good back to front tilt so hitting the right club is paramount. If your distance control is off bogey or worse awaits. The 8th (Biarritz) played about 225 yards yesterday. It has the swale like all of these holes do but it also has two deep bunkers, one on either side of the green. In playing this hole I've found that you must hit it straight. It is quite easy to get up and down from the swale in front but very difficult to get up and down from either bunker on either side. The 11th (Short) played about 135-140 yards yesterday. This is a terrifying Short. The green sits on top of a high mound and is virtually surrounded by bunkers. The bunkers range anywhere from 10-20 feet deep with the typical near-vertical Raynor bunkers. The green has horseshoe running around the the sides and back but the horseshoe is set at a slight angle to the line of play - the opening being more to the players left than straight on. It is very difficult to hit your tee shot on the perimeter of the horseshoe and doing so makes double bogey a likely score. The 15th (Redan) is played about 190 yards yesterday. You can only see the very front of the green and the requisite bunker runs along the left side of the green. On the right is just rough but it runs quite a bit down hill from the green (if you missed right yesterday your ball could wind up 30 yards from the green). The first 2/3 of the green is bisected by a spine running right down the middle of the green. When the pin is on the right the spine can help keep your ball closer to the pin. But, when the pin is on the left the spine can keep your ball from feeding all the way to the left. Yesterday here is what I hit into the holes: 5th - 6 and 5 iron, 8th - 21 degree hybrid and 3 wood, 11th - 9 iron both times, and 15th - 4 iron both times. That's pretty good variety.

As I said Camargo has huge greens with great internal contours. I've already mentioned the par 3s, but the 3rd (a short par 4) and 4th ( a long par 4) have waves that run across the green (the spines of the waves run front to back) that require your short iron to be in the correct trough, others have humps and pockets, and there is a double plateau. Nothing as wild as Ballyneal but the contours dictate play and call for exacting approaches if you want to make birdie. Because the greens are so big pins can be put near the middle of greens so that approach shots are not that intimidating for regular member play. But in the qualifier the pins are always put just a few paces from the edge. This typically means that you must always guard against missing the green when firing the flag. And when you miss you typically will be in a very deep bunker (unless you miss short as almost every single green is open in front).

If you have not played Camargo I would put it high on your list of must plays. Other features I didn't mention include great rolling terrain and a very pleasant walk. The course is quite spacious as there is a lot of acreage. The land value must be close to $100,000,000 given the clubs location in Cincinnati but you only get a glimpse of an old school mansion or two during the round. And there are no cart paths to mar the landscape (except on the occasional hilly section where they are hand laid pavers). Although the club allows carts the course gets so little play you can drive them anywhere.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 07:03:32 AM by Steve Kline »

Mike H

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 05:40:07 PM »
Steve

To the point of how penalized you will be if you miss a green.  Yesterday on 13 I pulled my tee shot way left and had 165 to the pin.  I pulled my second shot out of the rough, my ball hit the fringe and bounces left off the green down a 15 ft hill, across one of the few cart paths, through a ditch, across a street into the ditch on the other side of the road.  Luckily an official was there and told me the ball was still in bounds!  I have a feeling few people have played the shot I played and I managed to get a 5 on the hole from there.   When the pins are cut close to the edges of the greens at Camargo they are the most intimidating approach shots I have ever faced.  Miss the green and its a 15 ft face to a sand trap or since the ground is firm the ball will run into the long grass. 

Jim Sweeney

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 07:49:55 PM »
Mike H: I was site for your 5 at 13- I was actually surprised that the road was not OB but that is apparently how they play it normally.

There were a few new hole locations- 11 looked like a real bitch- not much room behind or right of that one!

Camargo is always a favorite and we are very lucky they continue to host one of our AM qualifiers (the other is a day earlier at Coldstream- another Cinci fave).

Glad you guys enjoyed it and survived the heat.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Steve Burrows

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2010, 09:00:17 PM »
When I visited Camargo about 6-7 years ago, I was given a tour by one of the Assistant Superintendent's.  If I remember correctly, when we were driving near the 12th tee, he said that someone had been doing some exploring in the woods to the left, and had found an old tee pad, one which had obviously been abandoned and where plant material had collapsed the playing corridor.

Did I remember this story wrong?  Or was he misinformed?  Can anyone confirm this tee pad, and if so, it's playing characteristics (angle, etc)?
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Jay Flemma

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2010, 09:09:32 PM »
No Biarritz holes were built with the front section as putting green.



are you sure that's correct?  I thought Yale and Forsgate for starters had the front section as green?  And a few others?  I thought there was a mix...some had the front as green, others didn't.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

George_Bahto

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2010, 10:46:17 PM »
Steve - the original plan for the 12th at Camargo was that the hole was to have an optional fairway. Raynor died before the course was finished. Charles Banks was so busy completing incomplete courses he couldn't get back to Camargo and holes 17 and 18 were completed in house according to the Raynor/Banks plans (sort of).

Not making the 12th an option hole was a combination of Raynor's untimely death and I do believe the club was a bit hesitant on the more radical design of the 12th ......   yes the tee is thee were originally designed.

Raynor once said he thought Camargo was one of his best courses.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Zack Molnar

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2010, 11:09:54 PM »
I am so glad everyone had a great time at the Am qualifier at Camargo. I worked in the bag shop there for about 6 years, during HS and college. At first I didnt realize how spoiled I was to work there, since they get so little play meaning we could basically play anytime we wanted after 2 or 3 any day of the week. But eventually I wisened up and began to truly appreciate the impressive features of the course.

Most are aware of the world class collection of par three's(Eden, Biarritz, Short, Redan), but there is also an incredible collection of par four's. 3 is a wonderful hole that measures only 320 from the tips, but the drive is no cake walk, as you have to traverse a large gully, and the faiway slopes to the right and back at you, making holding a firm fairway very tricky. Also, the green is incredibly difficult, the a large elevated horse-shoe tier around the back half edge, and then a lower portion in the middle, making getting at the back pins very difficult, especially on the 60-80 yard pitch shot most people face. 6 and 7 are great, and 12 is one of the hardest holes I have ever played. The drive is incredibly intimidating visually, even though there is a fair amount of room out there. Then the approach shot plays anywhere from 180-200, into the wind, uphill, to a green divided into 4 quadrants by two perpendicular spines, and putting from one to another is a very difficult feat. Par here is a great score.

In reference to the story about the "lost" tee on 12, the hole was actually originally designed to play as a par 5, with the cross bunkers on the hole playing a much bigger role than they do currently. There was a fairway out to the left of the current fairway, by where the front ladies tee is, for people who have played there. The current fairway was used for people trying to cut off distance from the hole. I used to have a picture of the original routing map, but I cant seem to find it on my old computer. When the club was slow(which was usually the case with only 250 or so golfing members and about 13k round a year, if that) I used to pour over it to see how the course used to play.

In terms of the recent restoration and renovations, they have been slow to take place. There used to be a bunker on the inside of the dogleg on four that was added in the 60's I believe, but that was taken out about 10 years ago. The real change for that hole came when the tree on the inside of the dogleg there was knocked down in a storm 3 years ago. Completely changed the hole, as there now was much less penalty for hitting it left off the tee. Other than that, changes have been more subtle. Bringing back greens to their full size, flattening and reshaping bunkers, redoing tees. The club is not one that likes to make drastic changes, and Tom Doak, whose firm is the consultant on the restoration, echoed this when I was talking to him, saying that he has been consulting for them for 25 years, and they have done very little of what he has told them to do. Also, the front portion of 8 has never been green according to the old pro who started there in the late 40s. Additionally, the slope on the right side of 14 wasnt as steep as it is currently. It used to be a lot gentler, and played as fairway, which i think would be a very interesting way to play it.

If anyone else has any questions about the club, feel free to ask. I truly love the place and treasure the opportunities when I get an invite to play. If anyone else has the opportunity, you must take the offer. They are hard to come by. We wouldnt see that many guests, so if you do get an invite, it is a real treat.

David Egan

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2010, 11:39:20 PM »
Steve

To the point of how penalized you will be if you miss a green.  Yesterday on 13 I pulled my tee shot way left and had 165 to the pin.  I pulled my second shot out of the rough, my ball hit the fringe and bounces left off the green down a 15 ft hill, across one of the few cart paths, through a ditch, across a street into the ditch on the other side of the road.  Luckily an official was there and told me the ball was still in bounds!  I have a feeling few people have played the shot I played and I managed to get a 5 on the hole from there.   When the pins are cut close to the edges of the greens at Camargo they are the most intimidating approach shots I have ever faced.  Miss the green and its a 15 ft face to a sand trap or since the ground is firm the ball will run into the long grass. 

I had a wedge out of the right rough on that hole in the afternoon which landed about 2 feet from the hole but bounced over the green and into the very long  rough long of the green. I thought I was going to have a kick in for birdie and ended up thrilled with a 6.  It was amazing, given how huge the greens are, the tiny margin for error with the pins yesterday.  The pins on the tiny shelves on 11 and 16 were incredibly demanding.  It was so strange to look at a 10,000 sq ft green and know that I only had about a 10 foot safe area on which to hit.

 It was a tough day but I'm glad I went. Camargo is absolutely amazing.  I want to make this event an annual trip as I'm sure I'll do  better as I get to know the course.

Steve Kline

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2010, 08:48:25 AM »
The 3rd is one of the best short par 4s I've ever played. It was 320 yards for the tournament and the hole is virtually dead straight. There is a fairway bunker on the left that can be carried by long hitters (but they will be in the rough if they carry it). There is a single tree in the right rough about 60 yards from the green (that tree has caused me to make a double before. The tee and green are at the same elevation but the fairway starts well below the level of the tee and rises up to the height of tee and green at about the 60 yard point. To the right of the fairway is a steep slope that was very dry for the qualifier. If you hit it on that slope you would kick down into a hazard. So, on a 320 yard hole you'd think hit hybrid-wedge and be down with it. The problem is the shorter the drive you hit the tighter the landing area and the more blind your second shot. The safer play is actually to hit driver but the tendency is to go left to avoid the hill/kick into the hazard. But if go left off the tee or into the left rough you have a deep bunker to deal with on your second.

I didn't think the 11th pin placement was that bad because the last time I played it was on the back shelf but more to left. I guess I didn't think it was that bad because I was expecting it. Certainly it was very, very difficult to get to as was the 16th. I thought the pin placement - extreme front right - on the 2nd was wicked. Both times I was 5 yards or so short of the green but in the middle of the green. It took me four and five shots to get down from a grand total of 60-80 feet from the hole!

I've never thought the 12th hole was that hard. Hit a nice fade off the tee and I've got an 8-iron or so to the green. Interesting that it was orginally conceived as a split fairway par 5. Was the tee a lot farther back because there is no room to move the green farther back in the current routing.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2010, 09:12:12 AM »
No Biarritz holes were built with the front section as putting green.



are you sure that's correct?  I thought Yale and Forsgate for starters had the front section as green?  And a few others?  I thought there was a mix...some had the front as green, others didn't.

I am sure Jay. Don't you remember the old article that Anthony Pioppi found describing Yale's 9th as a bunkered approach? I have it somewhere. No one seems to be sure when Yale first began maintaining the front section at green height. Even George Bahto acknowledges this now, I believe. 

You have to think back to 1910-1930 when there were no irrigation systems and the ball could not fly 200 yards in the air. The genious of this design, IMO, is that Macdonald game up with the concept of bunkering the approach to a long par three green, knowing that players would have to run the ball on the ground between the hazards and then down and up the swale. hence the name: Biarritz shot!

David Egan

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2010, 11:43:45 AM »
The 3rd is one of the best short par 4s I've ever played. It was 320 yards for the tournament and the hole is virtually dead straight. There is a fairway bunker on the left that can be carried by long hitters (but they will be in the rough if they carry it). There is a single tree in the right rough about 60 yards from the green (that tree has caused me to make a double before. The tee and green are at the same elevation but the fairway starts well below the level of the tee and rises up to the height of tee and green at about the 60 yard point. To the right of the fairway is a steep slope that was very dry for the qualifier. If you hit it on that slope you would kick down into a hazard. So, on a 320 yard hole you'd think hit hybrid-wedge and be down with it. The problem is the shorter the drive you hit the tighter the landing area and the more blind your second shot. The safer play is actually to hit driver but the tendency is to go left to avoid the hill/kick into the hazard. But if go left off the tee or into the left rough you have a deep bunker to deal with on your second.

I didn't think the 11th pin placement was that bad because the last time I played it was on the back shelf but more to left. I guess I didn't think it was that bad because I was expecting it. Certainly it was very, very difficult to get to as was the 16th. I thought the pin placement - extreme front right - on the 2nd was wicked. Both times I was 5 yards or so short of the green but in the middle of the green. It took me four and five shots to get down from a grand total of 60-80 feet from the hole!

I've never thought the 12th hole was that hard. Hit a nice fade off the tee and I've got an 8-iron or so to the green. Interesting that it was orginally conceived as a split fairway par 5. Was the tee a lot farther back because there is no room to move the green farther back in the current routing.

Agreed about the pin on 2.  In our second round, all three of us were just short and left, a combined 75 feet or so from the hole, and all of us  missed the green with our third shots.

Nick Asbrock

Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2010, 11:52:45 AM »
Any pics?


Criss Titschinger

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2010, 12:46:40 PM »
Any pics?

Nick, if you haven't already, check out this thread: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39026.msg815878.html. John Mayhugh's pics are the the best picture tour I've seen of Camargo anywhere.

Mike H

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2010, 01:28:27 PM »
Steve/David

I am not sure if you had a chance to look at the course statistics for the Am qualifier.  http://www.ghintpp.com/GCGA/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=27

12 played the hardest with 16 being the 2nd hardest hole.  Also the 2nd hole played the easiest on Tuesday.  I was really surprised to see that 16 played as the 2nd hardest hole.  Even though I took a 7 on 16 it was because I was completely wore out and blocked my drive about 200 yards right haha.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2010, 02:17:21 PM »
Interesting notes on those stats Mike:

1. On #2 I made one of the 4 others and one of the 8 double bogeys. Obviously, that whole really hurt me since it was the easiest hole out there.

2. On #18 I made two of the eight birdies!

3. I'm really surprised 12 was the hardest hole. I guess it is because if you miss right you're in a hazard and if you tweak it left you were in the tall stuff and had to reload. The pin was not in a hard spot.

4. #16 was so difficult because of the pin placement - about 5 feet on top of the plateau.

5. The par 3s were the two hardest holeson the front nine!!!

6. The difficulty of 6 and 13 is surprising. Both holes are under 400 yards. I think it's primarily because of the tee shots. On 6 that tee angle and tree off the front right of thee force players left and the hole slopes right to left. A lot of people end up playing out of the left rough or trees. On 13 I saw a lot of people hitting driver, which is just stupid. Hit 3-wood off the tee and you have a wedge to the green. I can't hit a 3-wood through the fairway. If I hit driver I run the risk of hitting it through the fairway and reloading or trying to cut the corner, not pulling it off and reloading.

Carl Rogers

Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2010, 04:57:23 PM »

Do I assume that this is an ultra private club and regular people do not have access?

Nick Asbrock

Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2010, 06:04:30 PM »
how does it compare with hyde park?

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2010, 06:20:46 PM »
Hyde Park is nice and very enjoyable. It has greens with great internal movement - more so than Camargo. But it is not anywhere near the same league as Camargo.

Zack Molnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2010, 10:31:40 PM »

Do I assume that this is an ultra private club and regular people do not have access?

That is correct. They have 350 total members, and I would say about half of them play golf, with an average age of about 70. It is a strictly  enforced guest policy, with all guests needing to be accompanied by a member. Your best bet of playing it is applying for the Am qualifier there at the beginning of August every year. Almost all the members are from Cincinnati, so there is not a very national reach for the club either.

Mike H

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Re: Camargo Club
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2010, 12:19:54 PM »
Zach

I have also heard that Camargo only gets about 10 rounds a day and only has 12 golf carts, is this true?

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