[Ronald Montesano]

One of the worst 18-hole courses in the world, Delaware Park in Buffalo, could be a fine 12 hole course with practice facilities, if only the municipal powers that be would think outside the tee box.

[Matt Day]

Matt,
Did the guys at Torrey Pines indicate that the percentage included league play or not?  At many courses in the USA, I would guess that after-work league play during the week accounts for a much higher %%% of all rounds, and this play is completely 9-hole.  However, some courses discount the "other" nine for ladies and guys who want to arrive early to play 18 total holes; this also might affect the numbers.

The USA is the land of influence and numbers.  We have [certain] numbers fixed in our minds (Roger, what perfect symmetry exists with the number 18?), which is why we prefer medal to match play, and we are influenced by tournament golf, which sets 18 holes as a number to play.

For many, golf is seen not as a holistic part of the days (work, golf, home) but rather a mini-vacation from the grind (honey, I'm golfing today.)  If it were the former, 6, 9, 12 hole go-rounds might become more common.  Since it is usually a portion-of-the-day-reserved affair, mainly on the weekends, 18 holes becomes the norm.

Ronald
From what we discussed it seemed like they didn't do any league play, they have 2(?) permanent clubs playing their as part of an agreement with the City but they are 18 holers.

I listened to a presentation on leagues at the Atlanta Golf Show and liked the concept. Would be an interesting thing to try here but may struggle to be accepted

[Randy Thompson]

Mike Young...are you asking me or Tom Doak about major golf associations?  I assume him, as he made the original comment.

Randy...how does Hugo Chavez feel about the golf hole in Venezuela...do you tell him you are Canadian?

Tom Doak...I hope that NY is represented on your Christmas card list.  We were in Athens, Ohio, for a few years.  The college has a nine hole course, the local country club (where Arnie and Jack first squared off) is 9 Donald Ross holes and a third local course, The Elms, was also nine holes.  That works in certain areas, but not in all, depending on demand.

What is the point of this thread...that present 18 hole courses ought to offer better deals for nine holes?  That future builds should consider alternate routings or overall plans, to encourage fractions of 18 holes?

Ronald
What makes you think he likes the Canadians any more than the US. If he asked, I would tell him nobody gave me a choice where to be born in this world and I just happened to to come out in the USA. But when the time came to make a choice I choose Chile but that would not do much good because he doesn´t like Chile either! He hates golf but he loves the international media attention and that is why he says he wants to close all the courses. He could be the front man for provoking the next world war but the Venezuelan people are excellent and most have had enough, what a pitty! Fractional eighteens in the future is a great road for the future!

[Richard Hetzel]

Due to time constraints (wife and 4 kids) I have grudgingly played more 9 hole rounds this season. It's better than nothing, but I would rather play the FULL 18!

There are myriad reasons why golf is struggling, none of which are the 18 hole course IMO.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Is this more of an issue in the US.  Here in Scotland it seems the norm to play a few holes just before dark if you dont feel like playing a full 18.   I often grab anything from 6-12 holes before heading for a night out.

[Roger Wolfe]

Ben,
The determining point is whether it is an equitable nine-hole fee..a local course charges $25 for 9, $35 for 18.  That give me no desire to play nine.

How About This Scenario?

I used to run a 44,000 round monster in Northern Virginia.  We were under significant revenue pressure and I constantly tried
to dream up ways of utilizing the course while trying to preserve the golf experience.  I think the only way the 9 hole concept
would work and still be monetarily feasible is if you found enough folks who want to play nine holes.

A good idea would be to perhaps run an early morning "Nine Hole Special!"  The superintendent would hate it but... you could
tee your 18 hole rounds off of #1 on Saturday then #10 on Sunday.  On Saturday morning you could run 9 hole rounds off of
#10 until the first 18 holes groups make the turn.  On Sunday morning you could run 9 hole rounds off of #1 until the groups
teeing off on #10 began to make the turn.  This would be a pretty cool way to maximize revenue and make a lot of folks who
were only free in the early morning or late afternoon happy.

If you were really creative, you could do the following on a Saturday, assuming 6:00 AM sunrise and 8:00 PM sunset and 10 minute tee times.
7:00 AM... 18 holers go off #1
9 holers go off #10 from 7:00 AM to 8:50 AM
9:00 AM... nothing but 18 holers off the front since the 18 hole groups are making the turn
2:00 PM... the last 18 hole group goes off #1.
2:10 to 6:00... 9 holers go off #1
4:10 to 6:00... 9 holes go off #10 after the final 18 hole group makes the turn

Assuming you charge $60 for 18 holes and $35 for nine holes you potentially get 43 18 holes foursomes and 48 9 hole foursomes for $17,040.
If you just go off of #1 all day until 4:00 PM you get $13,200 (55 foursomes).

What are the odds of getting 172 18 hole golfers and 192 9 hole golfers versus 220 18 hole golfers?  Would you run a $25 nine hole special?  That would only cost you $1,920 thus making the format above potentially yield $15,120, still more than the $13,200.  If I were a busy muni, unconcerned about the early morning "rabbits" playing in 3 hours... this might be a good model.

Of course, we all know the ultimate revenue generating nightmare is to shotgun 144 for 18 in the morning and 144 for 18 in the afternoon followed by another 144 nine holers at 6 PM!  288 golfers at $60 per head ($17,280) plus 144 golfers at $35 per head ($5,040)... for a total of $22,320!  I am glad my Japanese owner did not get wind of this idea.  However... I would bet the farm they use a model like this in Japan.

And Ron... the best way to look at $35 (18) versus $25 (9) is not to think you are getting ripped off for 9.  Pretend you are getting a volume discount and getting the second 9 for $15 off!!  

[Jim Nugent]

I'd love to see Lincoln Park in SF turned into a 12-holer. There isn't enough room for 18 there. It could advertise itself as the greatest 12-hole course in the world.

Cheers,
Dan King

You would like to gather up several holes from Prestwick and mail them to your top ten enemies.
  --Dan Jenkins

Which holes would you cut out?  Or would you re-route the course on the existing land? 

[RJ_Daley]

Roger Wolfe, that was by far the most well thought out and practical comment of this whole thread.  The logistics of any of these 9 hole fitting with 18 hole schemes is hard enough.  I have no idea how one could efficiently and profitably run 3-6 or 12 hole loops on one 18 hole course without a nightmare of conflicts, leading to mayhem on the customers part, insisting on who has right of way on next tees etc.

[John Moore II]

Roger-I'm more surprised that you used 10 minute intervals. You know full well in that situation you'd use 7 minute intervals

Either way, its a great idea to do it like that. You just can't really count on getting that many golfers out.

[DMoriarty]

Roger,

They let off 9 hole play on the back nine at Rancho Park in Los Angeles seven days a week, but it starts at sun up, or a while before, as does the play on the front.   Not sure when they have time to mow, but they must send mowers out on both the front and nine before the first groups and they must be doing it in the dark.   

Or maybe they just hope the 110,000 to 120,000 rounds a year will just keep the grass trampled down.

[Pete Lavallee]

Here is the scoop on Torrey and their 9 hole rates.

Since the North course has returning nines you are allowed to play the back nine at sun up until the first group makes the trun for $24 for city residents. The normal weekday greenfee is $40. Twilight rate kicks at 3:00pm in the summer for $24; this virtually guarantees you will not finish 18 holes. The non-resident rate for 18 holes is $100 and $60 for the back nine.

Since the South's 10th hole is 700 yards from the Clubhouse they do not offer the back nine at sun up rate. The twilight rate for the South is $37 compared to $61 for 18 holes for residents during the week.

[John Moore II]

Here is the scoop on Torrey and their 9 hole rates.

Since the North course has returning nines you are allowed to play the back nine at sun up until the first group makes the trun for $24 for city residents. The normal weekday greenfee is $40. Twilight rate kicks at 3:00pm in the summer for $24; this virtually guarantees you will not finish 18 holes. The non-resident rate for 18 holes is $100 and $60 for the back nine.

Since the South's 10th hole is 700 yards from the Clubhouse they do not offer the back nine at sun up rate. The twilight rate for the South is $37 compared to $61 for 18 holes for residents during the week.

Does it really take 5 1/2 hours to play Torrey in the afternoons? If you tee off at 4pm, I should think you can finish before dark for a good portion of the summer.

[Pete Lavallee]

JKM,

The rate is set to insure those who don't pay it will finish. The first few groups will indeed finish. They use 10 minute spacing on the South course , so pace of play is 4 1/2 hours. It get dark early here on the 33rd parallel; sunset is 7:43 today.

[John Moore II]

JKM,

The rate is set to insure those who don't pay it will finish. The first few groups will indeed finish. They use 10 minute spacing on the South course , so pace of play is 4 1/2 hours. It get dark early here on the 33rd parallel; sunset is 7:43 today.

With sunset at 7:43, you could probably play until 8:10 or slightly later. Yeah, the first several groups can finish, anyone silly enough to go off at 5pm will not.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()