[Bryan Icenhower]

Interesting quote from Chad Ritterbusch, ASGCA ED, at the end of an article in the USA Today ...

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-08-03-golf03_CV_N.htm

     Future golf courses may have fewer holes to save costs and appeal to the time constraints of younger golfers, he says.

      "Golf has to think out of the box," Ritterbusch says. "It has to adapt to the times."

It comes right on the heels of another quote about GCAs eschewing the US and building in hot spots such as China, South Korea, Eastern Europe, the Middle East and South America.

What would be the treehouse's thoughts on getting with the times vs the history of the game (18 hole course).  Is this the answer? 

FYI, the article is an interesting read in regards to the US golf market.

[Phil_the_Author]

Nine hole courses...

[Roger Wolfe]

If u don't have time... Practice and putt.  Don't take away the perfect symmetry of 18 holes!

Don't you think the "time mgmt" movement has resulted in the demand for big ranges with good targets and expansive short game areas rather than shorter courses?  Where are these short courses?  I have yet to actually encounter one!
 

[Greg Murphy]

If you don't have the time ... practice and putt. That is a prescription to sooth the infected who can't find the time (just about everyone hooked on golf in today's world), not a recipe for maintaining the game.  Putting is an incredibly important part of golf. But it is definitely not why people play. People play golf because they are attracted to certain landscapes and they love the the feel and the thrill of executing a series of movements that launches a ball in the air toward a target. The traditional golf model (anything less than 18 holes is unworthy) suited an era when the masses were prepared to sit and listen to public political debates that lasted longer than a muni round on a beautiful Saturday in July. I agree with Phillip Young. A model based around less (but outstanding) holes could save golf.

[Matt Day]

I've said it before on other threads that it's interesting that nine hole golf is not played more in the US. The Aussie golfing culture seems more comfortable with 9 holes of golf as an option.

We do 170,000 rounds per annum on a 36 holes and on average 65% of that is nine hole golf, when I was talking with the guys at Torrey Pines they were doing around 180,000 rounds per annum, of which 5-10% would be nine holes.

If you're time challenged nine holes has  got to be better than no holes, and we get a lot of business from punters playing 9 before or after work. Even our twilight rates are geared towards people playing 6-7 holes for $8

We are now looking at 6 hole rounds as a possible option for selected days, plus the future construction of a 3-4 hole (space and money permitting) par 3 track for teaching, beginners and the married blokes with 2 kids with only an hour to spare

[astavrides]

We do 170,000 rounds per annum on a 36 holes and on average 65% of that is nine hole golf, when I was talking with the guys at Torrey Pines they were doing around 180,000 rounds per annum, of which 5-10% would be nine holes.
 

Unfortuntely, most golf courses in the US make punters pay for 18 holes even if they only want to punt 9. 

[Ben Voelker]

We do 170,000 rounds per annum on a 36 holes and on average 65% of that is nine hole golf, when I was talking with the guys at Torrey Pines they were doing around 180,000 rounds per annum, of which 5-10% would be nine holes.
 

Unfortuntely, most golf courses in the US make punters pay for 18 holes even if they only want to punt 9. 

I am highly skeptical that "most" courses in the US charge for 18, even if you want to play 9.  Maybe high end daily fee places might do this (like Torrey Pines does on the South which doesn't have a return 9 and is somewhere between a high end and a muni), but every local public course that I have played ALWAYS allows 9 hole rounds for slightly more than half the 18 hole fee.  I used to do this all the time as a junior in Nebraska.  Even in Houston, I used to get out after work in the summer to play 9 holes at least once a week.

I think if you asked someone at a course more indicative of the typical public course in the US than TP you would probably find that this number is quite a bit higher, but I could be wrong.

BEn

[Ronald Montesano]

Ben,
The determining point is whether it is an equitable nine-hole fee..a local course charges $25 for 9, $35 for 18.  That give me no desire to play nine.

Matt,
Did the guys at Torrey Pines indicate that the percentage included league play or not?  At many courses in the USA, I would guess that after-work league play during the week accounts for a much higher %%% of all rounds, and this play is completely 9-hole.  However, some courses discount the "other" nine for ladies and guys who want to arrive early to play 18 total holes; this also might affect the numbers.

The USA is the land of influence and numbers.  We have [certain] numbers fixed in our minds (Roger, what perfect symmetry exists with the number 18?), which is why we prefer medal to match play, and we are influenced by tournament golf, which sets 18 holes as a number to play.

For many, golf is seen not as a holistic part of the days (work, golf, home) but rather a mini-vacation from the grind (honey, I'm golfing today.)  If it were the former, 6, 9, 12 hole go-rounds might become more common.  Since it is usually a portion-of-the-day-reserved affair, mainly on the weekends, 18 holes becomes the norm.

[Ben Voelker]

Ronald,

I would agree with you under normal weekend circumstances when I have the whole day at my disposal.  Of course I'm playing 18

BUT, If its after work, or I have to meet my wife somewhere in 3 hours on a Sunday and I want to get some golf in, I'm perfectly happy paying 2/3 price to pay 9 holes.  I would have serious doubts if I were required to pay the full 18 hole rate.  Either way, a 9 hole rate is offered (not the full 18 hole rate) and it becomes a matter of personal preference as to whether you would pay it under a limited time frame.  I would.

[Mike Nuzzo]

If I owned a golf course I would have 3, 5, 6, 10, 12, 16 & 18 hole loops - pay $2.50 per hole - less than the price for a ball!
I could have multiple groups teeing off into the evening.
It would be packed with kids, parents and old fogie treehouse members.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt Day:

There is actually a lot of nine-hole golf played in the midwestern U.S. ... nine-hole rounds are the reason that participation is so high in states like Iowa and Minnesota.

You just don't hear about it much because that is not the sort of serious, money-making golf business that the major golf associations focus on.

[Ronald Montesano]

Tom Doak,

Just curious...how did you hear about it, if it's not major golf association news.  I'm interested in the original source beyond your two eyes and ears.

[Mike Hendren]

Nine hole courses were very prevalent in rural West Tennessee where I grew up, particularly in towns with populations of 2,000 to 4,000.   I recall the monthly dues being $15 at our little club in Ripley in the 1970's. 

Mike

[Mike_Young]

Tom Doak,

Just curious...how did you hear about it, if it's not major golf association news.  I'm interested in the original source beyond your two eyes and ears.

Ronald,
Golf across the country works just like small town restaurants or bars ....no one needs to know about it except the people that go there and they have absolutely no need to advertise outside of their area....as a Student of golf courses TD would know this about the industry and the "major golf associations" could care less and would not have studied such....
Tell me..what do you consider major golf associations?  I know what I consider to be such and I hold them highly responsible for much of what has transpired in golf today....

[Garland Bayley]

If I go to the hardware store and buy 9 screws, I pay half as much as I would if I bought 18 screws. Maybe people would be more inclined to play at least 9 holes, if the courses didn't act like they were giving them a bargain for finding time to play all 18.

[Jud_T]

Maybe if 18 holes didn't cost $100 and take 6 hours we wouldn't need to have this discussion.  Seems in G,B&I it's a game of the people, while over here it's the whipping boy pastime of evil bankers....

[Randy Thompson]

I agree 100% we are moving in this direction stated, especially here in South America at least. Ten years ago we were being considered along with Ed Stones and associates to do a land plan and golf routing for a development. We won the contract and one of the reason was becasue we had four loops that went out from the club house. One nine you played four holes and were back at the club house and then played the other five and were back at the clubhouse. The back nine you went out with six holes and were back at the clubhouse and then went out for the final three holes. This was a private club, so no green fees associated with if you wanted to play 3,4,5,6 or nine holes. The entire property was a swamp with a difference in elevation of a couple of inches, so there was no searching for the best natural holes to capture the ideal routing. Five hours in todays society is a draw back for many many golfers.
The article mentioned South America as a hot spot for building, beleive me it is not that hot. Lots of projects talking to lots of names but if they to actual building will be doubtful. There is little market for half to million dollar designs and for courses that cost overall more than three million. Here is my actual situation and you tell me in what direction the market is moving down here.
1. Finishing the design of six holes par three course to be surrounded by villas, hotel and convention center in an exsisting 27 hole residential golf development. Clearing is going on now.   
2. Suppose to start nine hole par three course Sept one for an individual that loves art but as of now doesn´t play golf.
3. Just finished re- designing four holes for an eighteen hole project that we designed about ten years ago in Brazil. They got five holes built back than and stopped. They are now only going to have nine holes, so we had to add real estate and change holes and
re-design. they hope to get under construction Jan 2011.
4. Five holes - Par threes for a beach club in Venezuela with 2,000 members. Design finished a year ago, construction in in two to three months..maybe!
5.Just finished construction of eighteen and is in the grow in phase.
6. Starting construction in two weeks or actually shaping, the earth movement has been going on for some time. a design which we finished two and half years ago.
7. Starting nine hole design with real estate and hotel sept one. Design and construction at the same time and this a done deal not a maybe Sept one.
8. Getting ready to start the grow in phase of the second nine at Santa Martina, the design from ten ten years ago!
All sounds good but why is the only thing I have to eat is my fingernails!

[Tim Nugent]

Having been a partner and run a 9-hole course, here are some aspects I gleened from that experience.

Clubhouse operations - it costs as much to operate a 9-hole as an 18 - only 9-hole players don't spend nearly as much on merchandise or food (they are only there for a couple hours).

Maintenance - costs about 2/3's as much as a comperable 18 (3/4's if you have a range and practice green/chipping greens).

Beveage cart - Much less than 1/2 of an 18.

Range - more traffic than an 18 - I chalk this up to more time to hit balls when only playing 9.

More Economically minded players - they can walk 9, not spend on F&B and spend lots of time on the free putting/chipping greens.

It is hard logistically to have repeat for 18 play due to needing to block out a tee time without being able to insurehow long the 1st 9 will take to play.  We actually discounted the repeat 9 so it was cheaper than nearby muni's but it was never more than a marginal
percentage of play.

For 18 courses - whether it's 9 or 18 one wnats to play, there are only so many tee times per day and a 9 hole round is a lost 18 hole revenue.

As for the shortened loop concepts, these will work at private clubs but hard to police at public courses (you don't want 4 starters).  We did 3 6-hole loops at High Meadow Ranch, maybe Casey will let us know how popular that option turned out to be.

[DMoriarty]

What I find interesting about the article is that these quoted experts point mostly to changing demographics and interests as the culprit.  For example there was one comment about how young people would rather play on their iphones than golf for 6 or 7 hours.   

Six or Seven hours to golf?  Who wouldn't be bored silly by that?  No wonder less people are playing less.  It apparently hasn't occurred to them that 18 holes of golf ought to take 3 or 4 hours, but trends in equipment, course design, and expectations have made this a fantasy.  Those are demographic changes, they are failures of the industry to understand what it is that has always brought and kept people to the game.   

Unfortunately, building less holes won't change it if everything stays the same.   Building for six holes in two hours instead of eighteen holes in six hours seems to miss the point to me.

[Tim Nugent]

DM - when I was a kid, there were very few, if any, other kids that golfed. It cost $ that people just didn't have (same as today?).  It was easier to ride to the school fields and get a baseball game together or shoot hoops on someone gargage mounted basket.  Today, I think there actually be more kids who play golf - just because there are more kids.  But I also know that todays kids are much more scheduled than back in the day. Plus they have more items which they can spend their free time on.  We would run over 1,000 kids through our golf summer camps, but unless 1) their friends played and 2) parents played and supported it, they really don't play much.  Granted, we did have some course rats that got dropped off at the course and picked up many hours later but whether that was by choice or if mom was just using it as defacto babysitting (as we suspected many did with the camps) we will never know.

It still just boilds down to the fact that golf is discretionary in terms of both time and money.  It seems when one has the money, he doesn't have the time and, in a recessionary period, if one has the time  - he probably doesn't have the money.

[John Moore II]

If I owned a golf course I would have 3, 5, 6, 10, 12, 16 & 18 hole loops - pay $2.50 per hole - less than the price for a ball!
I could have multiple groups teeing off into the evening.
It would be packed with kids, parents and old fogie treehouse members.

Mike-I'm not certain how you'd get all those loops in place, but I love the idea. My course would return to the clubhouse on 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18. You can play any amount of loops you want. And charge a flat rate for them, I like the $2.50 a hole number you put down. Ideally, you could have another 'traditional' 18 hole facility and a great practice area to go along with the 'loop' course. But I fully agree that 'odd' courses need to be built in order to make it possible for more people to play the game due to time constraints.

[DMoriarty]

Tim Nugent,

No doubt that kids (and everyone) have more options and shorter attention span, and families prefer to spend time together instead of separating on weekends,we've been trending this way for years.  Yet golf courses have become longer, slower, and more expensive to play and build.  The trends in golf amplify the societal trends and make an already difficult situation much worse.  People ask themselves is golf worth the money and the time?   With $100+ five+ hour rounds, it is not hard to figure what the answer will be for most people.  Rather that "thinking outside the box" and reinventing golf, one would think the powers that be might consider returning to a more sustainable  model for golf. 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

Just curious...how did you hear about it, if it's not major golf association news.  I'm interested in the original source beyond your two eyes and ears.

Ronald:

My Christmas card list includes people from 45 states and 30+ countries, but all of it goes back to getting around a lot when I was younger.

Also, my ex-wife is from western Iowa and I played golf in that part of the country a few times when we would visit her family.  Most of the little towns (anything over 2,000 population and some under 1,000) had their own nine-hole course.  And they are probably still doing okay, because they always kept the overhead low and never had idiots from out of town paying them $150 and demanding better conditions and better dining rooms.

[Ronald Montesano]

Mike Young...are you asking me or Tom Doak about major golf associations?  I assume him, as he made the original comment.

Randy...how does Hugo Chavez feel about the golf hole in Venezuela...do you tell him you are Canadian?

Tom Doak...I hope that NY is represented on your Christmas card list.  We were in Athens, Ohio, for a few years.  The college has a nine hole course, the local country club (where Arnie and Jack first squared off) is 9 Donald Ross holes and a third local course, The Elms, was also nine holes.  That works in certain areas, but not in all, depending on demand.

What is the point of this thread...that present 18 hole courses ought to offer better deals for nine holes?  That future builds should consider alternate routings or overall plans, to encourage fractions of 18 holes?

[Dan King]

When I first played Pacific Dunes I played it as a 12-hole course. I had a great time. 12 holes seemed to me like the perfect amount. If I wanted to play some extra golf, 24 or even 36 was fun, but for a quick round, 12 seemed like the perfect amount. I don't think it stands much chance of happening, but I'd love to see some 12-hole courses built. It's a nice number, and has some tradition involved. The first Opens were contested on a 12-hole course. 

I'd love to see Lincoln Park in SF turned into a 12-holer. There isn't enough room for 18 there. It could advertise itself as the greatest 12-hole course in the world.

Cheers,
Dan King

You would like to gather up several holes from Prestwick and mail them to your top ten enemies.
  --Dan Jenkins

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