[Ronald Montesano]

Let's get down on our knees and pray this does not come to pass.  Fresh off the XM radio with Brian Katrek, a fellow who was a Pace of Play Ambassador (I know, chuckles) at The Greenbrier this past week stated that Jim Justice and John Daly will go around the course to potentially determine where the holes should be lengthened.

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OK, enough.  Lester...Lester?!?!

[PCCraig]

If true, that is scary.

[Mark McKeever]

Oh no....

Mark

[Greg Tallman]

Well the first hole has that goofy tee right on the clubhouse terrace when anyone in their right mind knows they could add 50-60 yards by putting it on the roof.

I believe it would be difficult to lengthen the course significantly without a total redo.

Who the heck wants to watch guys playing 525 yard par 4's?

To be honest the green complexes seemed a bit tame for what I was expecting though had they been a bit more firm it could have been a different story.

Expect changes on a very grand scale for the entire golf complex. Just hope they do not destroy Old White in the process. Given the number of golfers they need to servcie I would recommend that they combine the Greenbrier and Meadows courses into a singled course with a nice par three or executive/junior course mixed in. They really do not need three golf courses. 

[RJ_Daley]

When 10 handicappers routinely start shooting par on a resort course like that, then I'd worry.  Somebody must take Mr Justice aside and tell him to quit focussing on the few pros that played this week.  Watch what the paying customers do!!!  If customers even begin to routinely shoot their real handicaps, then think about something to tweak.  But, for crissakes, someone needs to get Justice away from Daly.  Besides, didn't Daly finish on par?  What was so easy about it to him?

[Tim Gavrich]

The winning score was -22 this weekend because, it seemed to me, the greens and fairways were so soft that it was just like throwing darts all weekend.  Let the rough grow a bit longer, put a little less water on the greens and fairways, and the winning score will be closer to -15, which is more than reasonable for a typical PGA Tour event.  But there is simply no more room to lengthen the Old White without compromising what Lester George has done to it.

I would rather see Greg Tallman's suggestion implemented: combine the Meadows and Greenbrier courses into 27 or 18 new holes that can make a 7,300 yard course for the pros.  Have Lester come in and use the same principles from the Old White/CB Macdonald on the new course and everyone is happy.

[Jim Franklin]

I was told the PGA did not want any "tricky" pin placements. Tough crap fellas, make the greens teh first line of defense. I played there a month ago and the pin on #18 was just over teh back left of the horseshoe. Any shot with a little draw will fly over the back so you had to cut it to get it close. I never saw them use that pin.

Old White is a fine course for their guests. The PGA Tour is not their typical player so they should not ruin it for everyone else. Let them play next door at The Snead if they want a difficult course for crying out loud. Plus Justice owns that too.

[jeffwarne]

The winning score was -22 this weekend because, it seemed to me, the greens and fairways were so soft that it was just like throwing darts all weekend.  Let the rough grow a bit longer, put a little less water on the greens and fairways, and the winning score will be closer to -15, which is more than reasonable for a typical PGA Tour event.  But there is simply no more room to lengthen the Old White without compromising what Lester George has done to it.

I would rather see Greg Tallman's suggestion implemented: combine the Meadows and Greenbrier courses into 27 or 18 new holes that can make a 7,300 yard course for the pros.  Have Lester come in and use the same principles from the Old White/CB Macdonald on the new course and everyone is happy.

I just checked with the USGA.
the ball does not go appreciably farther than it did in 1903.
so therefore they should do nothing(to the course or ball)

[Mac Plumart]

 

[John Moore II]

I don't get this at all. He could easily market The Old White as the only CB Macdonald golf course open to the public and make incredible money because of that fact. Hopefully the walk with Daly (if true) will just be to say 'hey, there is a spot there where you can lengthen this hole 15 yards' and stuff like that. I know I do that quite a bit when I play a course, look for spots where they could build another tee box and lengthen the hole. Surely Mr. Justice has better sense than to really tear apart a classic course like that.

[Greg Tallman]

By the way I wanted to point out that the sponsor's expemption given by Justice to the West Virginia Amateur champion was not a wasted spot. Jonathon Bartlett acquitted himself rather well in making the cut and finishing 70-68-71 before being left out of the field on the final day. (hate that rule). 

[astavrides]

it's definitely the equipment that causes the low scores.  Make them go back to square grooves.

[Ronald Montesano]

on their drivers?

[Tim Gavrich]

The winning score was -22 this weekend because, it seemed to me, the greens and fairways were so soft that it was just like throwing darts all weekend.  Let the rough grow a bit longer, put a little less water on the greens and fairways, and the winning score will be closer to -15, which is more than reasonable for a typical PGA Tour event.  But there is simply no more room to lengthen the Old White without compromising what Lester George has done to it.

I would rather see Greg Tallman's suggestion implemented: combine the Meadows and Greenbrier courses into 27 or 18 new holes that can make a 7,300 yard course for the pros.  Have Lester come in and use the same principles from the Old White/CB Macdonald on the new course and everyone is happy.

I just checked with the USGA.
the ball does not go appreciably farther than it did in 1903.
so therefore they should do nothing(to the course or ball)

jeffwarne:

Not quite sure what you mean by this response.  The ball surely goes farther, but what percentage of the increase is due to the increase in physical fitness of the average PGA Tour player now, rather than the ball?  I don't think there were too many workout trailers at tournaments in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

I come from a state whose PGA Tour event (The Travelers Championship) is played on a 6,841 yard golf course that, year after year, provides a stern test for the pros.  The winning score is generally between -12 and -20.  This year, Bubba Watson won in a playoff over Scott Verplank and Corey Pavin.  If that isn't proof that there's more to the modern game than driving distance, nothing is.

I just hope Mr. Justice understands that the Old White course is never going to consistently yield winning scores worse than -15 to -18, unless weather interferes a lot over the course of a tournament week or he presents a US Open-type setup with ridiculously tough rough, concrete greens, and the hardest pin positions.  What's wrong with a setup that rewards professional golfers for hitting good shots?  Why is it considered insulting for a course to yield a winning score of -20?

I am content to watch the PGA Tour's best play the Old White course every year and have the winner shoot -20.  Further lengthening of the golf course (with one exception: make the 8th about 15 or 20 yards longer if possible) would disrupt the flow of the golf course and intrude too much on the edges of the property, IMHO.  The winning score should have no effect on a fan's perception of the quality of the event.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Katrek commentated that there's nothing wrong with being a shorter course of quality. The greens were soft because of overnight rains. That was the reason for the low scores. Fast & firm would yield a different course. I hope Lester George gets through to Justice on this.

[Wade Whitehead]

I am content to watch the PGA Tour's best play the Old White course every year and have the winner shoot -20.  Further lengthening of the golf course (with one exception: make the 8th about 15 or 20 yards longer if possible) would disrupt the flow of the golf course and intrude too much on the edges of the property, IMHO.  The winning score should have no effect on a fan's perception of the quality of the event.

Tim:

My problem was that guys were hitting wedge into almost every par four.  With on appreciable rough, there was no strategy; driver on every hole, then a 48 degree from 140 yards.

I would love to see the tournament return to the Old White every year, but I'm hoping they provide more of a counter to bomb and gouge.  Weather played a HUGE role last week but there are probably some changes Lester can head that will offer more of a well-rounded test.

One question: You recommend lengthening the 8th by 15-20 yards.  It played 220+ on Sunday, I think, and close to that at least one other day.  It actually stood out as one of the only holes that I thought held its own.  Why do you suggest adding yardage to just that one?

WW

[Ronald Montesano]

Tim, Jeff was being a smart-ass, as was I.

Ron M.

[jeffwarne]

Tim, Jeff was being a smart-ass, as was I.

Ron M.

Yes I was, although I prefer to call it .

Tim, I can only speak for distance I've gained since 1984 (when I was 21)
Since I'm using the same irons(and am a club longer) and i don't work out,
I'm guessing some of my distance gains(30 yards plus with a driver) may be from the ball.

although some of my distance gains could be from the tour workout vans

[Ronald Montesano]

Man, oh man...I think I had Wilson Staff tour blades in 1984.  Great year, except for that Orwell thing...

I still have the clubs but I can't look at them without cutting myself...that sharp a leading edge and that thin a sole.

[Tim Gavrich]

I am content to watch the PGA Tour's best play the Old White course every year and have the winner shoot -20.  Further lengthening of the golf course (with one exception: make the 8th about 15 or 20 yards longer if possible) would disrupt the flow of the golf course and intrude too much on the edges of the property, IMHO.  The winning score should have no effect on a fan's perception of the quality of the event.

One question: You recommend lengthening the 8th by 15-20 yards.  It played 220+ on Sunday, I think, and close to that at least one other day.  It actually stood out as one of the only holes that I thought held its own.  Why do you suggest adding yardage to just that one?

WW

Wade--

I buy into Phil Mickelson's "make the hard holes harder and the easier holes easier" philosophy for tournament golf.  A tee at about 230-235 on number 8 would even further challenge the players and would encourage them to use the kick-in side slopes, as appears to be the idea.  Also, it's one of the few spots on the course (in my recollection) where a tee could be built further back without it getting in the way of another hole.  As 217, most pros are able to hit a high, soft 4 (!) iron and they don't need the side slope as much.

--Tim

[Tom Yost]

Does Mr. Justice's ownership predate the Lester George reno/resto ?

The story does not surprise me as:
- Tour pros hate the classic features we all profess to love (quirk and character).
- The Greenbrier ownership is likely keen on keeping the event, meaning requested changes will probably be implemented.

[Greg Tallman]

Does Mr. Justice's ownership predate the Lester George reno/resto ?

The story does not surprise me as:
- Tour pros hate the classic features we all profess to love (quirk and character).
- The Greenbrier ownership is likely keen on keeping the event, meaning requested changes will probably be implemented.

Justice purchased the resort in early May 2009. Not sure when Lester's final tweaks were.

[Chuck Brown]

...

Not quite sure what you mean by this response.  The ball surely goes farther, but what percentage of the increase is due to the increase in physical fitness of the average PGA Tour player now, rather than the ball?  I don't think there were too many workout trailers at tournaments in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

Timmy Herron and Carl Petterson just called.  They wondered if you could pick up a dozen chili dogs, a case of beer and a gallon of Chunky Monkey ice cream on your way over to the golf course.  Timmy says a pack of smokes, too, if they have them.  Carl's trying to quit.  Hard to do, though, when you hang out with Daly.  That dude is hard-core.

I just hope Mr. Justice understands that the Old White course is never going to consistently yield winning scores worse than -15 to -18, unless weather interferes a lot over the course of a tournament week or he presents a US Open-type setup with ridiculously tough rough, concrete greens, and the hardest pin positions.  What's wrong with a setup that rewards professional golfers for hitting good shots?  Why is it considered insulting for a course to yield a winning score of -20?

Um, nothing, except for the fact that the -20 that Jeff Overton shot, was done with little more than driver, wedge and putter.  Every once in a while, something else.
And yeah, nobody can do much about the weather.  I'd personally like to see the Greenbrier less green, or at least a little faster-playing than the darts contest that we saw.  But it's hard to fight rain and humidity.
In any event, we agree.  A winning score of -20, or -25, or -30, in one PGA Tour event, is better than the horrific alternative of defacing a Macdonald/Raynor gem.

I am content to watch the PGA Tour's best play the Old White course every year and have the winner shoot -20.  Further lengthening of the golf course (with one exception: make the 8th about 15 or 20 yards longer if possible) would disrupt the flow of the golf course and intrude too much on the edges of the property, IMHO.  The winning score should have no effect on a fan's perception of the quality of the event.

I agree.  Period.  And, it would be even more fun to watch the Tour players negotiate that course without equipment that can produce 300+ yard drives at will.

[George Freeman]

I'm OK with them lengthening the course, so long as they don't mess with the architectural integrity of the course...If the greens weren't mush I don't think we would have seen nearly as many low scores.

However, I would be strongly opposed to moving/altering greens and fairway bunkers, or holes in general, to accommodate additional length.

[Ben Voelker]

I just hope Mr. Justice understands that the Old White course is never going to consistently yield winning scores worse than -15 to -18, unless weather interferes a lot over the course of a tournament week or he presents a US Open-type setup with ridiculously tough rough, concrete greens, and the hardest pin positions.  What's wrong with a setup that rewards professional golfers for hitting good shots?  Why is it considered insulting for a course to yield a winning score of -20?

Um, nothing, except for the fact that the -20 that Jeff Overton shot, was done with little more than driver, wedge and putter.  Every once in a while, something else.
And yeah, nobody can do much about the weather.  I'd personally like to see the Greenbrier less green, or at least a little faster-playing than the darts contest that we saw.  But it's hard to fight rain and humidity.
In any event, we agree.  A winning score of -20, or -25, or -30, in one PGA Tour event, is better than the horrific alternative of defacing a Macdonald/Raynor gem.

I understand that firm and fast means the greens are getting tougher and balls are trickling into the rough, but who cares if the pros are coming in from less than 130 on every green anyway.  You're not taking wedges out of their hands and I don't think you're raising scores much.  This just shows the severity of the difference between tour pros and the rest of us.  If you don't like the scoring, find somewhere else to have the tourney, or pray the USGA does something about the equipment issue in the near future.

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