[Matt_Ward]

Location can matter to many people -- here in New Jersey there is the wonderful Banks Course at Forsgate. Although located conveniently just off Exit 8A on the NJ Tpke -- the facility straddles the halfway mark between the Big Apple and Phillie.

In recent years the facility has been taken to another level through the leadership of Chris Schiavone and the course has benefited immensely.

The last of the designs from Charles Banks -- Forsgate provides rumpled fairways that work their way up and down the site. The range of lies one can have is too numerous to count and the greensites are among the Garden State's finest.

The course has been lengthened appropriately and to the credit of the leadership the 17th hole was restored through the solid efforts of Stephen Kay. Collectively, the four par-3 holes are unmatched in Jersey save for the likes of PV and Plainfield.

One of the most improved holes on the course is the finale -- now stretched to 450 yards the tee shot usually plays into the prevailing SW winds during the summer. Even after finding the fairway the approach can be played from a sloping downhill lie and the green is "banked" (no pun intended) with a frontal bunker that is no less than 15 feet below the green surface. Just a great concluding hole to a course that has the goods to make Jersey's top ten -- no small feat indeed.

[Mark McKeever]

What was your take on the horseshoe green Matt?  Looks pretty wild from the pictures.

Mark

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

The 12th hole at Forsgate -- the aptly named "horseshoe" green is stellar. The shot is a short one -- under 150 yards from the tips and often the prevailing wind is behind you which complicates matters. The pin has been placed on the extreme flanks but I especially like it when placed in the dead center furthest rear position. It take plenty of guts and a but of luck to hit and hold a shot to such a location.

The Banks Course has four solid par-3 holes -- including a reverse redan that gets so little attention when one thinks of the visibility of another redan -- the 2nd at Somerset Hills.

For too many years Forsgate had a management approach that was operating at less than full throttle. That has changed.

Those who have not been there recently or at all -- need to set their GPS systems at exit 8A -- they will not be disappointed. By the way - the Doak rating that Tom gave in CG is based on what the course was about many years ago -- that has changed upwards dramatically now.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Is Forsgate now accepting public play?

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:


Good question -- I don't think it's that accessible -- but I do believe that if people were to call the pro shop via their own pro it might be possible.

Forsgate is not a stuffy private club that people need to grovel to play -- that's the MO for a good number of other courses in NJ.

[Michael Barnett]

Matt,

As someone who grew up in the area I've been able to see the evolution of the Banks Course at Forsgate.  The recent work done by Stephen in conjuntion with the improved conditioning has the course playing the best I've seen in many years.  The par 3's are extraordinary; there is not a weak hole amongst them.  I personally find the contours in the Eden green (#3?) some of the best I've seen anywhere.  For anyone in area, it really is a must-play.  I am not certain if it makes my NJ Top 10, however, its darn close if not already there.  I am shocked at how few people even in the area understand the quality of this course right under their noses.

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

Even on GCA -- ignorance can be bliss. People just tend to gravitate to the same predictable names. Frankly, it amazes me that Baltusrol gets all the ink it does. No doubt it has the chops to host major events but the design elements -- especially of the Lower, is quite pedestrian in my mind.

Forsgate benefits immensely from the new mgmt team and ownership. There has been a zeal to get the course in the best possible form it can be. Kay did a superb job in the restoration of the 17th with the Biaritz green and the turf quality is also better -- although I'd like to see the course play a bit more faster and firmer.

Location still plays a role although frankly getting to exit 8A on the NJ Tpke is literally moron-proof.

The par-3 holes are extraordinary. They provide the total examination -- in terms of shot control and trajectory. The short 12th is a gem of a hole because it can bring even the best of players to their knees with faulty execution. Put all of them together and they are quite a foursome.

You are right on the 3rd hole -- just a solid hole -- especially when the pin is cut hard right.

You said it might not make your personal top ten in Jersey. Can you name for me your top ten ?

The key ones I have in my top ten include the following ...

(in no particular order save for the first two)

PV
Plainfield
Ridgewood (E&W)
Galloway National
Essex County CC
Bayonne

I'll name my other four (4) when you respond.

thanks ...

[Michael Barnett]

Matt -

I also agree with your comments re: firmer and faster.  The course can and I hope will continue to improve in that area, but it is clearly moving in the right direction.  The other item is continued focus on tree removal; it has been a little over a year since I've been there but I still think the club has a fair bit of work to do there.  No doubt its better than when I was playing it 15 years ago, but it has miles to go to be in the league of what's been done at ECCC or Sleepy Hollow.  As for my Top 10, i agree with the 6 you've mentioned above.  The others that I think merit discussion are (in no particular order):

Mountain Ridge CC
Montclair GC (2&4)
Somerset Hills
Forsgate/Banks
Hidden Creek
Baltusrol Lower

As I mentioned earlier, Forsgate is clearly in the discussion; I am just not certain where it shakes out amongst that group.  And to be clear, I think NJ is  a state blessed with fantastic courses.

[Bill Brightly]

I have always found Forsgate to be the most difficult of all the Banks Courses, not because of the shots required but rather, because the recovery shots are so hard. Up and down par saves are SO hard here.

The par 3rd hole is a great example: miss it short right and you will be 30 yards below the green. Miss it long or left and you will have an impossible downhill/sidehill chip. Four is a good score if you miss this green. It is a challenging and well-conceived golf hole but it is a TERRIBLE vesion of an Eden hole, I guess he learned this from Raynor, or CBM failed to teach Raynor about Edens... The only reason to call this an Eden is because the other par threes are clearly a Redan, Short and Biarritz...

I also think this is Banks' worst vesrion of a Short Hole. ECCC, Hackensack and Rock Spring all had better, more classic Short Hole characteristics, IMHO. I  think the donut circle at Forsgate is too much, and when I  saw National's massive, sprawling green for the first time last year, I thought of Forsgate's and thought to myself: CBM would NOT have approved of Forsgate's. Can't prove it, just my gut feeling.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

I agree the 3rd is not a real Eden hole -- but let's focus on what THE hole does provide. The approach has to be pinpoint -- one has to know your limitations when playing it because as you correctly stated -- misfire and the result is at minimym a quick bogey on the card.

You'll need to explain how the Short / 12th at Forsgate is lacking. The abruptness of the circle is what makes the hole. When players are hitting a very short iron into it -- the need to extract tremendous accuracy is fair game in my mind.

Forsgate accentuates the need for position play. In this era of bomb and gouge the course in 2010 still has major relevance.

[Bill Brightly]

Matt,

You know that I am a huge Banks fan, but I think Forsgate #12 is an example of a hole where Banks went too far and the hole is needlessly unnatural looking. Don't get me wrong, that rim is a bitch to putt through if you are the wrong side of it and I have my share of 3 putts there.

To me, the genius of the Short Hole template is a variety of "greens" (small targets) within the green and I believe that Banks could have done this with a more natural-looking green at Forsgate.

As to the third hole, what good is it to "know your limitations"? This hole seems to always play into the wind for me, it is a long iron or more, and there is no bail out area that I know of...  I call this a "squeeze your cheeks and hit it on the green" shot. Am I right or is there some safe place to miss that I have failed to find?

My favorite part of the course is the back-to-back par fives: Hole 8 and 9, two great holes, and I give Banks credit for having he courage to route two par 5's together.

[Gerry B]

top 10 in new jersey:

neeed to add :

plainfield
somerset hills
atlantic city

at the very least

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