[Matthew Runde]

When I see the South course on TV, I see holes that are extremely penal.  Bowling alleys with bunkers in the gutters.  I see a back-and-forth routing that looks like the aisles of a supermarket.  Yet, the course is highly lauded.  I haven't been there, so please help me understand why the course is praised.  Are there subtleties in elevation?  Are the angles subtly strategic?  Is it fun to play?

[Matthew Sander]

Matthew,

Having not played Firestone, my impression from TV is similar to yours (and potentially off the mark). I may be wrong, but I don't think you'll find a boat load of praise for Firestone on this website. I assume what it does well is test the tour players. It seems to be a difficult course for driving your ball and the enormous trees probably accentuate misses. Add in the smallish greens and only 2 par fives and you have yourself a brute. That said, it doesn't look like a course that would receive much praise for creativity or variety. The overhead shots of the routing showing the side by side nature of most of the holes are astounding.

[astavrides]

The overhead shots of the routing showing the side by side nature of most of the holes are astounding.

It was actually Allen Iverson's cornrows you were looking at.  I think you misunderstood.  

[Phil_the_Author]

What's so great about Firestone?

Why its where the rubber meets the road...

[Mac Plumart]

I think the course was quite a long one when persimmons and balatas were the latest technological advancements.  And its length is what made it a challenge.  If anyone can confirm or deny this, please chime in...I am just going by what I have read/heard.

Also here is an older thread on the course...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30582.0/

[Gary Slatter]

Firestone has a great history, some superb articles and pictures on the walls back to the early TV days (CBS matches, Akron something?). The 16th was the first "monster" hole that I remember.
I've played it maybe 15 times and it was always perfect - normally the bunkers are in the fairways not in rough.
The greens used to vary, now they look uniform.  The par threes were good.  Trees are a hazard but only a partial stroke and fun to negotiate on a normal basis.
The locker room is the place to stay - every club should have such a facility (its for men only except after midnight).
RTJ Sr renovated the original course.
All three courses are worth playing, we got to play them all in one day which was neat.  We used to do a corporate outing there the Tuesday after Labour Day and got to stay the weekend before (to set up),

If a course was designed for a one iron, Firestone was the place. Of course 1 irons are rare now but Firestone lives on....

[Chris Buie]

It looks to me like it could have been designed by a fairly bright high school sophomore.  Zero imagination.  Redundant, little variation, etc.
It certainly is a test and very tough.  Or can be made to play very tough.  Yes, there is a history there.  Yes, the locker room and membership are probably enjoyable.  It does appear that the greens keeping team does what they are asked to do very well.  It's the design that is the culprit here.  One of the least impressive designs on tour.  The routing is beneath comment.
I usually wouldn't bother to post something this critical.  However, this design is so strikingly bland that it warrants it.

[Carr Harris]

I think the fact that the course routing is so laughable belies the fact that there are some really good holes there. There is more width out there than appears on TV, and most of the green complexes are very interesting. I thought the 18th was one of the best finishing holes I've ever played in my life.

Now that being said, playing golf down what amounts to supermarket aisles doesn't really appeal too much to me.  I actually prefer the north course to the south at Firestone. It's just my feeling that assuming the course is entirely devoid of Architectural merit because of its asinine routing can be a mistake.

[Carl Rogers]

Contrasting Firestone with Harbortown, why does Harbortown win praise from most GCA's?  The courses are a bit similar in being narrow, tree lined and smallish greens. 

HT on television looks very flat.  Firestone has a fair amount of ground movement.  Both do not seem to have a lot of ground game potential.

Is it because one is RTJ sr vs Dye?

[Gary Slatter]

Chris Buie and Carr Harris
Why would an aerial affect your feelings for a great course?  Each hole from it's tee deck is excellent, from the aerials the routing looks simple but in the playing Firestone is not boring or redundant to me or the others who I enjoyed it with. 

The first round there I was walking up to the first green, putter in hand, 40 yards from the green, when a ball rolled past going in the other direction.  My playing partner, Bobby Wilson, said "I think that's your ball Slatts and you'll need a different club."

Carl
Yes, RTJ is the problem for this site.  and the aerials!

[Ed Oden]

Matthew, I think you are starting with a bit of a false premise that Firestone South is highly lauded and praised.  While the course is no doubt famous, it isn't ranked by any of the major publications (Golf, Golf Digest and GolfWeek), other than on "best in state" lists.  So I think it is a mistake to lump Firestone in with some of the other courses that take a whipping due to a perception they don't deserve their lofty rankings.  Clearly, Firestone is not in vogue on this website.  But that doesn't mean it isn't a fine course nonetheless.  Personally, I found more than enough merit to hold my interest.  It has a handful of outstanding holes and very few weak ones.  The rolling terrain is very good.  While the aerial may appear boring, I didn't get that feeling on the ground, at least no more so than at any number of courses that are far more high lauded than Firestone.  Could it lose some trees and benefit from wider playing fairways?  Certainly.  Then again, I've heard the same comments about Pine Valley.  At the end of the day, I'd say Firestone is ranked just about right...i.e., not at all.  And I'd gladly play there again if the opportunity presents itself.

[Ian Dalzell]

Matthew
I have played about 10 competitive rounds at Firestone South over the last 3 years in an Invitational Pro-Am that they have there.  Put me in the camp that loves the course, and thinks it possesses architectural merit, shot values galore and some great classic, traditional golf.  I won't go into hole by hole but I would urge those who only see it thru Aerial blimps to go walk the property.  There is plenty of elevation change on 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 16, 17 and 18.  Great greensites with lots of movement and contouring, always fantastic conditioning and after the golf you have a great staff and locker room to unwind.

Other than some tree pruning/removal required on hole 3, I love this layout.  I never feel bored and it always makes me want to go back to the 1st tee for more.  I love the canting fairways and uneven lies that throw off your balance on 1, 2, 4, 10, 16 and 17.  I love the green sites of 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17 and 18. 

This place deserves more credit that I think it receives.  It is pure golf, in my mind, and classic, traditional and fair but very, very hard.

I will always hold the South in high regard.

Ian

[Gary Slatter]

Matthew
I have played about 10 competitive rounds at Firestone South over the last 3 years in an Invitational Pro-Am that they have there.  Put me in the camp that loves the course, and thinks it possesses architectural merit, shot values galore and some great classic, traditional golf.  I won't go into hole by hole but I would urge those who only see it thru Aerial blimps to go walk the property.  There is plenty of elevation change on 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 16, 17 and 18.  Great greensites with lots of movement and contouring, always fantastic conditioning and after the golf you have a great staff and locker room to unwind.

Other than some tree pruning/removal required on hole 3, I love this layout.  I never feel bored and it always makes me want to go back to the 1st tee for more.  I love the canting fairways and uneven lies that throw off your balance on 1, 2, 4, 10, 16 and 17.  I love the green sites of 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17 and 18. 

This place deserves more credit that I think it receives.  It is pure golf, in my mind, and classic, traditional and fair but very, very hard.

I will always hold the South in high regard.

Ian

Well said Ian, the course deserves more credit than it receives!   It's as American as apple pie!

[Matthew Rose]

RTJ did not actually rout the course. I don't recall the original designer offhand, but when RTJ came in he had a desire to change the routing but couldn't find any practical way to do so.

[Matthew Runde]

It sounds as though there's more elevation change within the fairways than is visible on TV.  Does that bring the bunkers more into play, especially when the fairways are cut wider?

[Dan Herrmann]

Slightly related - have you ever heard of "Thinking Man's Golf", a 60's board game from 3M? 

Used to play it as a kid and loved playing Firestone.

Aah - golf in the pre-video game age!

[Gary Slatter]

It sounds as though there's more elevation change within the fairways than is visible on TV.  Does that bring the bunkers more into play, especially when the fairways are cut wider?

Exactly, more elevation change for sure, and when I played the fairways were cut to the bunkers bringing them into play (for normal golfers).  I can't recall two holes in a row with similar elevation, it's always moving up, down or sideways.  Matthew, try to play it and stay in the clubhouse if possible.

[JC Jones]

Contrasting Firestone with Harbortown, why does Harbortown win praise from most GCA's?  The courses are a bit similar in being narrow, tree lined and smallish greens. 

HT on television looks very flat.  Firestone has a fair amount of ground movement.  Both do not seem to have a lot of ground game potential.

Is it because one is RTJ sr vs Dye?

Carl,

While I have not played Firestone, I have played Harbourtown a couple times recently.  Harbourtown's defense/intrigue is much less to do with just being long hallways.  Many if not all of the holes are angled and the course is built entirely on playing to the right spots for the right angles, rather than just being long and straight.  You'll hit driver at HT, as well as every other club in your bag.  Perhaps the issue with Firestone is that it is, from what I see, a driver/mid-iron or short-iron course.

[Shawn Arlia]

I believe the original designer of the golf course was bertie wey. He s actually designed several very good courses in the area, including Mayfield Country Club, Aurora CC, Chardon Lakes, and J.E. Goodpark. Its my opinion that the course is well deserved of all the praise it gets. Quite simply, you have to golf your ball to post any type of good score here. And honestly, thats what i want to see when the pros play here, a course where shooting a couple under par is a great score. As much as everyone talks about angles, and strategy, Firestone hits on the factor that every good golfer really wants from a course....the challenge of executing your swing!! Its that simple. And I find nothing wrong with that!!

[Mark_Fine]

Firestone is what I call a great test of golf but not necessarily a great golf course.  Geoff Shackelford and I once discussed this at length.  Maybe some of you know what I mean. 

[Tim_Cronin]

About a decade ago, they played on Firestone South for some reason. That was an interesting course, albeit with a bit too much water for my taste. Anyone know why they don't use that one for the tournament more often?

[Carl Nichols]

Not sure if it's a function of the speed or the contours (I assume the latter), but there seemed to be a lot of misreads and missed putts today.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I have always felt Firestone was part of a group of courses which set the bar on this Jones Sr penal style or architecture. Spyglass and Champions in Houston along with a number of high profile Chicago courses set the bar. Big strong par 4's ruled the day on these courses. I enjoy the challenge but do not feel they create much sense of passion or overwelming desire to play every day.

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