[Ronald Montesano]

Farrell Evans:  This week you took a tour of Chambers Bay, a links-style Robert Trent Jones II course off the Puget Sound. What did you think?

George "Buddy" Marucci:  It's a big, beautiful golf course. There is nothing like it in the States.

Are we to assume that the dos-veces Walker Cup captain hasn't been to or heard of Bandon Dunes?

And then, Farrell gets schooled by George Buddy:

Evans:  Word on the street is that if I want to play at Seminole, Merion or Pine Valley — to name a few great golf clubs you belong to — you're the man to talk to. How many club memberships do you have?

Marucci:  I don't like to talk about that. I don't count them. All I will say is that I get to play at some really nice places.

Here's the interview link...http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/article/0,28136,2007395,00.html

[Adam Clayman]

This quote could be similar to "the finest course of it's type" left handed compliment. Couldn't it?

[Tim Bert]

I think his comment I fair enough. Bandon certainly isn't a linksy course that plays firm and fast that was completely manufactured out of a mining pit.  I'd put Chambers Bay in a Bandon/Whistling Straits hybrid category.  It was more construction than discovery but the playing experience is more linksy than Straits, at least on the holes that don't require carries over big sand pits.

[Ronald Montesano]

So, to further split hairs, he's being as precise as we are in this forum, delineating between Straits, Kiawah Ocean, Bandon and Chambers?  There are at least 8 courses "like it" in the general sense of the term in the lower 48:  the Bandilateral, Kiawah Ocean, Straits, Irish and Arcadia Bluffs.  I can't imagine he's differentiating, using the qualifiers that Tim uses.

I do agree with A-Clay that it smells of a p.r. comment from a guy who doesn't want to go too deep.

[Garland Bayley]

...that was completely manufactured out of a mining pit.  I'd put Chambers Bay in a Bandon/Whistling Straits hybrid category.  It was more construction than discovery ...

It sounds like you are not familiar with the creation of Chambers Bay. Unless I don't understand what you mean by "more construction than discovery". The course lies where it does, because it was the interesting terrain upon which to discover a routing. The county originally wanted 36 holes, but so much of the terrain available would have needed a course to be "manufactured" RTJ II convinced them to choose just the best bit for 18 holes.

[Michael Dugger]

...that was completely manufactured out of a mining pit.  I'd put Chambers Bay in a Bandon/Whistling Straits hybrid category.  It was more construction than discovery ...

It sounds like you are not familiar with the creation of Chambers Bay. Unless I don't understand what you mean by "more construction than discovery". The course lies where it does, because it was the interesting terrain upon which to discover a routing. The county originally wanted 36 holes, but so much of the terrain available would have needed a course to be "manufactured" RTJ II convinced them to choose just the best bit for 18 holes.

I too question how much "discovery" was done at Chambers.

I think it was a crude pile of dirt, sand and gravel.......that was MASSIVELY shaped into something.

If not, why a 20 something million construction budget, Garland???

[Tim Bert]

...that was completely manufactured out of a mining pit.  I'd put Chambers Bay in a Bandon/Whistling Straits hybrid category.  It was more construction than discovery ...

It sounds like you are not familiar with the creation of Chambers Bay. Unless I don't understand what you mean by "more construction than discovery". The course lies where it does, because it was the interesting terrain upon which to discover a routing. The county originally wanted 36 holes, but so much of the terrain available would have needed a course to be "manufactured" RTJ II convinced them to choose just the best bit for 18 holes.

I too question how much "discovery" was done at Chambers.

I think it was a crude pile of dirt, sand and gravel.......that was MASSIVELY shaped into something.

If not, why a 20 something million construction budget, Garland???

This is what I was getting at an if I am wrong then I certainly apologize for the comment.  I am not familiar with the details of the construction.  I was basing my comments on 1) two days at the course walking around a property which felt like it had been created and 2) the old pictures of the site on the wall that show the property as flat as a pancake down in that pit.

To be clear, I wasn't tossing around my comments as an insult either.  I thought the course was fabulous, but I wouldn't group it in a category with Bandon Whistling or the other courses from Ronald's list that I either played or know something about and I don't base that comment on quality as much as style.  I do think it is unique, and while the comments in that article might be PR spin, I think there's also some merit to them.

I'll let Garland and others from the area set me straight on the manufactured comment, but for now assuming it was manufactured, I think that sort of puts it in a group with Whistling Straits or Arcadia (from what I've heard - I've played Koehler courses but not Arcadia) except that the experience seems more genuinely firm and fast and linksy.  So, if it has to be in that group, then I guess I'd put it at the top of that group. 

[Garland Bayley]

...that was completely manufactured out of a mining pit.  I'd put Chambers Bay in a Bandon/Whistling Straits hybrid category.  It was more construction than discovery ...

It sounds like you are not familiar with the creation of Chambers Bay. Unless I don't understand what you mean by "more construction than discovery". The course lies where it does, because it was the interesting terrain upon which to discover a routing. The county originally wanted 36 holes, but so much of the terrain available would have needed a course to be "manufactured" RTJ II convinced them to choose just the best bit for 18 holes.

I too question how much "discovery" was done at Chambers.

I think it was a crude pile of dirt, sand and gravel.......that was MASSIVELY shaped into something.

If not, why a 20 something million construction budget, Garland???

Michael,

You were there at the GCA event where Jay Blasi explained the genesis of Chambers Bay.
Why don't you set us straight on exactly what was "MASSIVELY" shaped, on when the routing was "discovered", on why it cost a little over 20 million.

[Michael Dugger]

...that was completely manufactured out of a mining pit.  I'd put Chambers Bay in a Bandon/Whistling Straits hybrid category.  It was more construction than discovery ...

It sounds like you are not familiar with the creation of Chambers Bay. Unless I don't understand what you mean by "more construction than discovery". The course lies where it does, because it was the interesting terrain upon which to discover a routing. The county originally wanted 36 holes, but so much of the terrain available would have needed a course to be "manufactured" RTJ II convinced them to choose just the best bit for 18 holes.

I too question how much "discovery" was done at Chambers.

I think it was a crude pile of dirt, sand and gravel.......that was MASSIVELY shaped into something.

If not, why a 20 something million construction budget, Garland???

Michael,

You were there at the GCA event where Jay Blasi explained the genesis of Chambers Bay.
Why don't you set us straight on exactly what was "MASSIVELY" shaped, on when the routing was "discovered", on why it cost a little over 20 million.

Well, obviously the 10th hole was blasted through some existing dunes/hillocks/mounds.

Jay B. said some of the terrain around the 6th green was retained.

Jay B. also mentioned A LOT of fill being required to raise the 8th fairway/green.

I don't quite understand your perspective on this, Garland.  It's so PC of you.

20 some million is a lot of money.  It had to have gone somewhere, and while the clubhouse is nice, it's not THAT nice/big.

Here is a little photo showing what appears to be one big sandbox, IMHO.  Just about the entire course was manufactured.

[Garland Bayley]

Well, obviously the 10th hole was blasted through some existing dunes/hillocks/mounds.

It is my recollection that the 10th hole location was the best source of pure sand, so it served as the location for mining sand for the rest of the course.

Jay B. said some of the terrain around the 6th green was retained.

He also said that the 12th hole is almost exactly as found, except for shaping the green.

Jay B. also mentioned A LOT of fill being required to raise the 8th fairway/green.

Clearly the 8th is one of the most "manufactured". They routed it there from the raw site, but had to cut and fill to make the hole, much as any architect would when constructing across a steep side slope.

I don't quite understand your perspective on this, Garland.  It's so PC of you.

20 some million is a lot of money.  It had to have gone somewhere, and while the clubhouse is nice, it's not THAT nice/big.

Surprised you didn't identify where we were told most of the money went. The surface of most of the course was pretty much what you might expect from a mine site, junk. They stripped a layer from almost the whole course, which had been routed on the existing terrain before work began, hauled what they stripped to a site set up for screening the sand out, and hauled the sand back to where it came from. The had to supplement the sand hauled back with sand mined from the area of the 10th hole.

Here is a little photo showing what appears to be one big sandbox, IMHO.  Just about the entire course was manufactured.

The most manufactured part is the faux dunes they built. However, the basic terrain remained much as they found it.

I hope we can agree that the course was "discovered", but yet much was manufactured. You didn't define "MASSIVELY" so I hope we can agree on much.

[Garland Bayley]

...2) the old pictures of the site on the wall that show the property as flat as a pancake down in that pit.
...

And the holes "down in that pit" are pretty flat. E.g. 2, 11, 16. Driving range. But, the course traverses in and out of that pit at 12, 13, 14, 4, 5, 7, 9.

[Michael Dugger]

There just isn't much about Chambers Bay that makes me think "discovery," Garland, I'm sorry but there isn't.

The site is essentially a big sand bowl.  #4 goes up the side of the bowl, #5 comes down it.  #7 goes up it, #8 skirts the edge of it, #9 comes down it.

#12 goes up it, #13 skirts the edge of it, #14 goes down it, #15 goes down it even the further.

Then there are the holes hugging the waterfront and a bunch in the middle of the "sandbox"

Everything around the walking trail was fabricated to hide it.  When the course first opened up there wasn't really anywhere you DIDN'T see dozer tracks.  

I fail to really see your point regarding the export/import of topsoil.  Did all that fresh screened material go back in the same spot where it was taken from?  To my mind that would imply there was a virtuous feature worth saving.

Now don't anyone go getting me wrong.  I think some of the fabricated features of the course are fabulous.  I love #2, #3, #4, #10, #11 pretty much through to the finish.  Great stuff, I like this sort of golf course architecture.

But this was a complete refacing of a landscape, not a delicate nip and tuck...

[Michael Dugger]

Back to the original question.  I think Arcadia Bluffs is a whole lot like Chambers Bay. 

And Whistling Straits, except it apparently rarely plays fast and firm.

There has been a lot of talk recently about Bayonne.  Seems like the same model as well...

Take old ugly, plundered waterfront land and give it a pretty (but rugged) golf facelift.

[Garland Bayley]

Dugger,

We may be closer on this than it seems. Your word "MASSIVELY" indicates to me something along the lines of Shadow Creek. Your last post indicates how the existing terrain of a "big sand bowl" was used to create the course. To me that means the routing was discovered in the existing terrain, but a major face lift had to be done on the surface, including the addition of many pimples (where the cat tracks were).

And, OBTW, #9 is a great par 3!  After all, we didn't want any more holes in the base of the "big sand bowl".

[Steve Lang]

 

Tim,

I don’t think the old photos on the wall of the CB clubhouse portray the site in more recent times before the course was “found”

FROM http://apps.ecy.wa.gov/shorephotos/scripts/photosearch.asp?id=PIE0139

chambers creek wastewater treatment plant in foreground on south flank of golf site..  photos go north on shoreline














HISTORY OFCHAMBERS BAY  http://www.chambersbaygolf.com/kemper/courses/layout10.asp?id=173&page=3354

I think many will be diplomatic about CB, though they’ll really yearn for more old style, easily walkable courses, and as “linksie” as it looks, I think the AM’s and Pros will still mainly play an aerial game there for the most part

[Garland Bayley]

If my interpretation is correct, the last two pictures are where the course was "found". The first several pictures are flat land that RTJ II rejected for building on.

EDIT: Also, interesting to note is the water on the site seems to be approximately where they hand a water accumulation problem early on. Don't know how that has turned out.

[Michael Dugger]

Here is a crude version of the routing....

[Garland Bayley]

Not bad Michael,

You have 12 far too long, and far too south. I believe it is in what was all forested at the time. Notice how much north (left) you have to move #15 to get it to end in front of the lone fir.

[JC Jones]

What about Arcadia Bluffs is "linksy"?

[Ronald Montesano]

Thread jackers, all of you!

My initial intent was, is Marucci that specific (or out of touch) to claim that nothing like Chambers exists in the lower 48.  I had forgotten about Bayonne.  The average golfer would not differentiate 'twixt Bandonia, Staits/Irish, Bayonne, Chambers, Arcadia, Kiawah Shore.  They would all be seen as British-style courses.

JC, what is linksy about Arcadia?  Think of shots that trundle along, that can be played through/beneath the wind.  I submit that there are many forced carries at Arcadia, but I played intentional runners into a number of greens and along a number of fairways.

[Tim Bert]

Is Marucci really a member of all those clubs?  If so, I doubt he has much time for the average golfer and their opinion. Not to mention that while the average golfer might not differentiate between the courses you listed, it wouldn't make the average golfer right. More likely the real average golfer would not have heard of many of those places in the first place.

[Ronald Montesano]

Tim,
That's a good point.  Now I'm not certain what I was after...it just seems that, for a well-traveled guy like Buddy, courses like Bandon, Straits and the like would be known by him and that he would have said "there are few courses like it" in the lower 48.

[Tim Bert]

Well, if nothing else I learned that Chambers wasn't a flat pit when they started building the course. Although I am still not sure if I understand if the terrain was natural or if it was man-made as a result of all the mining that had been done. I assume the latter?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is a honest comment. I too find the course to be a cross between Bandon and WS. It like WS is a total build from scratch. My hat is still off the Jay Blasi and the Jones team as well Pierce County for this spendid addition to the Pac NW and American Golf scene.

[Pete_Pittock]

It is like Bandon because it has fescue, is on the west coast and has a view of the water and is walking only. The only course at Bandon remotely similar to Chambers Bay is Old Macdonald. They share the same open scope and bigness. I cannot wait to get back and play Bandon in four months. I have no desire to play Chambers Bay again, and Tacoma is half the drive time of Bandon. The only course that I have played that rivals Chambers Bay is Arcadia Bluffs. Earlier today I overheard a conversation about Chambers Bay where someone was comparing it to Tetherow. Must be the fescue.

Maybe if they installed escalators.

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