[Dan Herrmann]

I was out at French Creek playing with a couple of friends, both of whom are very keen observers of GCA (and who have posted many times on this website).  

The green staff placed the holes yesterday in some very interesting positions, given the fact that the greens were lightly punched and topdressed the day earlier (thanks to the cooler weather).  Most of these positions were near the edges and made for a very interesting day.   One of our group said (and I paraphrase here), "Placement of the hole...  is a key factor in helping to realize the course's full potential."

Boy, was he right.   One of the best things about having Bruce Cadenelli as our head greenkeeper is that he and his staff understand Hanse's design intents and try to place holes in enough different locations that they provide a playing experience free of boredom.   It's always tremendous fun to see the hole cut in a position that's new, unique, or exciting.

What's your experience?  Do you see hole position position as being key to realizing GCA, or do you feel differently?

[Tim Gavrich]

Dan--

In a word, absolutely.  I played the golf course on the grounds of Hotchkiss School in Lakeville, CT (picture thread coming in a bit) and was delighted at the selection of hole locations on those greens.  Not once did it seem like whoever placed them was just trying to get the job done by putting them in any old location on the green--each one was in a cool spot.  It made the round all the more enjoyable.

[Bill_McBride]

Who decides where the holes are cut at YOUR club?

This is a general question, as I'll bet the answer varies widely from club to club and event to event.

[Dan Herrmann]

Bill, - At our place, it's the green crew (other than for outside tournaments for GAP or the USGA)

[Bill_McBride]

One of the happiest things that's happened at our place lately is that we've quit the "front-center-back" program with 1, 2, and 3 pins.  Now there is a more random selection of pins and it's a lot more fun.

[Joel_Stewart]

It's an important job. 

Years ago Pat Mucci posted something about his club using the same pins day in and day out.  Then one day they where completely different and it made the club really interesting.   So I fired off an email to our super and he thanked me and thought it was a great idea.  For the next week, I heard from some members and even the green committee chairmans wife at some of those unusual pin placements.   It lasted about 1 week and then they went back to the norm.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Pin positions need to be changed about every 200 rounds. Primarily the main reason to move the holes is wear and ideally all the green should be used to help the wear distribution. The better (more interesting) places tend to get reserved for competitive play. Many greens have 50% unpinabble when you consider a 2.5 metre band around the edge, and slopes that are too steep, which extend as the green speed increases.

[Matt_Cohn]

On a typical golf course, how many minutes would it add to pace-of-play if hole locations were in tournament-style locations on a daily basis?

Is it a pace of play thing, a customer satisfaction thing...?

[Leo Barber]

It was brought home to me during the recently held Open at St Andrews just how differently pin selection on that course in particular with greens of that size can alter the GCA.  In saying that though I was surprised that over the four rounds how little some of the actual pin locations altered whilst physically shifted

[Mike Hendren]

Great topic.  At the club I recently belonged too the staff rarely took advantage of the entire green and instead seemingly used a rote rotation.  I don't know if that's laziness or a reluctance to stir controversy, but when time permits I often wander around greens on courses I'm visiting to look for old cup locations.  Generally, pin-placement lacks creativity and a nod to the architecture's flexibility. 

Bogey

[Dan Herrmann]

Michael - I love your phrase "architectural flexibility".  Sums up my thoughts in this area perfectly.

[Davis Wildman]

On a typical golf course, how many minutes would it add to pace-of-play if hole locations were in tournament-style locations on a daily basis?

Is it a pace of play thing, a customer satisfaction thing...?

Now that greens, and other course features can be modeled using 3d laser scanning a whole slew of metrics and/or analysis can be derived for reading the green surface and proper cup location and it enhances pace of play and increases member/player satisfaction, reduces green surface wear/tear and be prepared for reno/restore with design grade datasets and hi-def maps.

Pretty neat all in all.  Players love to see what they knew they were seeing or experiencing on their greens and they make for great conversation and study pieces.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I hate the idea of having to cut a hole location based on some sort of mapping or computer software. I mean I hate it, really, really hate it...now, if you can come up with some software that takes into account weather, especially wind direction and strength, how firm everything is, wear and tear on the green and ingress/egress areas, and green speed, then I guess I'd take a look.

I'm very fortunate in that I've never worked anywhere where I had to follow some silly pin rotation deal...oh I've had golf pros tell me how I can't put a pin in a tough spot on a weekend (pet peeve of mine and Bandon was one of the worst offenders I've seen with all the tees moved way up on the June day I played there) or I should do this or I should do that. I cut the cups a lot and I play decent golf. I know better than any program how to balance the course and how to protect my greens. This is one area where old fashioned seat of the pants superintending is better than any office computer approach.

[Dan Herrmann]

Don,
Well put - besides, once you work at a course for a while (and hopefully play it too), you'll sure know the greens.  Besides, sometimes it's fun to scout a green for an interesting new hole location.   Take out a spare golf ball you to make sure it's fair and that's probably all you need.

[Mike Nuzzo]

This picture seems a little silly to me.
Can't anyone put the pins on the edge like this?
From today's sr. open and weiunderpar.com

[Rob_Waldron]

Don

I am sure you are well qualified to select cup locations. Unfortunately at MOST courses this is done by very low skilled maintenance employees who do not even play golf. In order to compensate for the lack of knowledge  and /or training many clubs have gone to pin sheets in hope of making the process idiot proof. Considering the increasing green speeds that are demanded the cuppable locations on many greens are very limited and should only be determined by a knowledgable member of managment such as the Super or Pro.

I have seen far to many golf experiences ruined by poor cup placements. I have often had this conversation with Golf Professionals after playing a course.

Mike

I attended a PGA/USGA Tournament Workshop several years ago and they provided pin sheets from the Player's Championship. On that sheet there was never a cupping location more than 5 paces from the edge of any green. When asked about this the reply was that the players today are so good that the only way to protect the integrity of the course was to go to this type of extremes with the cups. Remember....These guys are good!

[Don_Mahaffey]

Rob,
I can't tell you how tired I am of that argument.
Does Billy Casper delegate important jobs to low paid, unqualified workers?

If course management assigns an important job to someone who wasn't trained and who doesn't understand how to do it well, management is the idiot, not the guy cutting the cup.

IMO, this and many other issues that I see in golf course management is a result of hiring grass growers instead of golf course managers. Sad thing is, there are good golf guys out there who do understand the game, but that's hardly important at many places anymore because it's all about the grass and not the game.


The further dumbing down of the game.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Those guys may be good, but the courses sure aren't.

If the greens were well designed a hard pin can be in the middle of a green - or at least more than 5 paces.
And then so can the flag (if a hard pin is wanted)
A hard flag in the middle can be very vexing when they hit what they think is a good shot.

And I don't mean tiers in the greens.

And what happened to a variety of pins - in terms of ease and difficulty - not the hours on a clock type.

Cheers

[Davis Wildman]

I hate the idea of having to cut a hole location based on some sort of mapping or computer software. I mean I hate it, really, really hate it...now, if you can come up with some software that takes into account weather, especially wind direction and strength, how firm everything is, wear and tear on the green and ingress/egress areas, and green speed, then I guess I'd take a look.

I'm very fortunate in that I've never worked anywhere where I had to follow some silly pin rotation deal...oh I've had golf pros tell me how I can't put a pin in a tough spot on a weekend (pet peeve of mine and Bandon was one of the worst offenders I've seen with all the tees moved way up on the June day I played there) or I should do this or I should do that. I cut the cups a lot and I play decent golf. I know better than any program how to balance the course and how to protect my greens. This is one area where old fashioned seat of the pants superintending is better than any office computer approach.

Gee Don...with all due respect, if I'd known this was such a sensitive issue for you, I'd of asked you to edit my post...or maybe not posted at all.  "Hate" is such a strong word...wow.  You are apparently fortunate, and gifted with eyes that have built in clinometers or digital slope meters...I'm not sure most of us mere mortals as so blessed with such.  

Just curious; how many rounds do you push through WP annually?  No doubt you don't to deal with the volume of traffic and hackers like me out there that most muni's and daily fee courses deal with, so pin placement may not be so important to you.  What is the average sq.ft. of the greens at WP; probably much more area than your average muni where maximizing greens' turf quality, and shot value, on limited green area, is key to player enjoyment and keeping maintenance costs down.

I do agree with you however; you do know better than any bit of software how to balance your course and protect your greens, but I'd offer again that you might actually enjoy seeing a nice 3d model of the beautiful greens you all built there.  

As a point of reference since we don't know each other, I'm 'Old School' and over 50yo, but appropriate use of tech can be an enhancement to our work, or at the very least, a tool/solution such as we're talking about used 'appropriately' for cup location, can qualify and confirm what we see on a green, can document and preserve great gca and provide a basis for learning, better understanding and thus more effective management for the next guy who has to come in and step up to the good stewardship you provided on WP or any other course for that matter, where employee turnover is normative and where many guys aren't as experienced or knowledgeable as the guy/gal who just left the position.





 

[Don_Mahaffey]

Davis,
Wolf Point isn't the only course I've ever managed.
For the record, I think computer mapping and all that has it's place, no doubt about that. Just not in day to day things like selecting hole locations. Heck, Nuzzo probably knows as much about that sort of stuff as anyone and he's provided me maps on top of maps. 

I own a digital slope meter, but haven't used it to select hole locations as I really don't believe that is the best application for a tool like that. An understanding of how the hole will play that day along with a putter and a couple of golf balls is all I (and anyone else) need.
.

I like technology just as much as the next guy. I use a computer to manage my irrigation flow and delivery, but I decide when and how much to irrigate. I'm spraying my fwys right now with a machine that uses a computer to put precise amounts of material down, but I choose the material and write the programs based on what I'm trying to achieve. I like tools, but computers don't play golf and this idea that we can't train someone to set up golf courses so we have to delegate to a computer program to make decisions is simply not the best approach in my book. It’s certainly easier, and I don't have to accept responsibility for lack of training or bad set-up, but I want that responsibility.

I happen to think that daily set-up is as important as any job I do. I’ve always felt that way and always will. First and foremost we are here to provide a playing field to play the game. Where you start and finish each hole and how all 18 holes provide variety and balance is important to the experience. A computer program that tries to give you that balance without taking into account the variables isn’t the best way to do the job.


 

[Davis Wildman]

Don,
For the record, I've learned from and enjoyed your posts here and I can ascertain from such that you are well experienced and very knowledgeable...no question about it.

I also agree with you; a computer program isn't the proper tool for making decisions on a course and I never said it was, nor did I say such a program existed...however, an accurate model/map or related info can be very useful and indeed help maintenance personnel who don't have the years of experience you or others do.

I was only trying to participate and offer something of interest and fun.  Sure, this is some of what we do in the golf biz, and each week I learn more and more from guys like you with tons more 'seat of the pants' (your words) time in the saddle of gc mgt, and hope that what we provide helps decision-making only...it is not gospel, but it is what it is and represents what is on the ground/green.

Peace

[Adrian_Stiff]

Whilst for competitive play it is important to have the best pins, for 95% of the general you just have to go with the lesser places the rotation system largely makes sense. I dont think there are many courses that can afford someone to go out with a putter and a few balls for anything other than the big comps, and in all honesty the super knows those great spots anyway. Changing holes is much more about regulating the wear and stress than it is about bringing the architecture into play for most situations.

[JohnV]

One of the main functions of my job is picking hole locations.  Every tournament is different just as every course is different.  When I pick hole locations for a US Open qualifier they will be a lot more difficult that for a Junior Tour tournament.  It isn't to "protect the integrity of the course" as someone said, but to separate the better ball strikers / putters from the rest.  The players who play on the PGA Tour are so good that harder hole locations are required or everyone makes birdie and there is no real separation based on the talent that week.

As an example of selecting hole locations, today I was at Spyglass picking hole locations for the NCGA Junior Championship which is next Monday and Tuesday.  I've got 112 players there on Monday.  76 of them (older boys) have to play 36 holes that day.  If I pick hard hole locations, we'll never finish.  So, they are pretty easy that day.  One Tuesday after the cut for those boys, we'll have about 80 players playing 18 holes.  They will be a little more difficult, but I've still got 12 and 13 year old kids playing in this and I don't want to wipe them out.

Next Friday, we are going out to pick the 5 days worth of hole locations for the NCGA's most important tournament, the Match Play Championship.  The hole locations will be a lot tougher, especially during the three days of match play.  We can get a lot more aggressive in match play as we know all the players will be playing well, the pace of play is less of an issue and we really want to challenge them more.  But, we'll also have some pretty easy ones so a player can make a birdie and start a comeback.  It isn't rocket science but a lot more thought goes into it than for day-to-day play.

As for pet peeves, the front-middle-back thing really gets too me.  After my last trip to Bandon, I commented on their survey form that the practice of doing this really dumbs down the courses and makes them less interesting.  In particular, all the par 5s at Pacific are multiples of 3 (3, 12, 15, and 18)  This means that they are all front, or all middle or all back every day.  I hope they look at changing this.  Even if they just divided each green up into three sections and put that on their little hole cards, but didn't just go in order around the course it would be better.

I would also dispute the statement someone made about the guy cutting the holes not knowing much about selecting them or even playing the game.  At most courses where I'm running a tournament, hole cutters are usually either guys with a lot of experience or the assistant supers.  They do know what they are doing.

[Jason Topp]

One of the things we did as green co-chairs this year was to ask that our superintendant follow our rotation maps (which is a 9 area rotation - the 9 areas varying based on the characteristics of each green) and make the hole locations more interesting.  It has worked really well and has resulted in more difficult hole locations and more variety from day to day.  Many of our greens have tough undulations and I think the hole cutters had gotten a little safe over the years to avoid criticism.  The rotation (and the fact they can point to us if someone complains) gives them license to pick interesting spots and they have shown terrific judgment.

For us at  least the two guys that cut holes are considered the best on the staff which helps with picking the location, the mechanics of cutting the hole, and the mechanics of replacing the prior hole so that it heals quickly.

[Mike Nuzzo]

The players who play on the PGA Tour are so good that harder hole locations are required or everyone makes birdie and there is no real separation based on the talent that week.

John
I thought the fact that tournaments were 72 holes over 4 days was what separated the players.
Wouldn't the best ball striker and putter win if there were 72 easy pin placements?

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