The common thread in greatness

[Simon Holt]

Out of those courses, only Pine Valley has a water hazard without flowing water.

Which is why Pine Valley doesn't belong on a list of great courses.  

I have been fortunate enough to play 6 of Tom's listed 10s in the first post.  I can only assume you are jesting that PV doesnt belong in that list.  It is obviously all down to personal preference and as a links golfer through and through, it hurts me to say, that it is the best course I have ever played.  Actually it doesnt hurt that much at all.

Partly jesting, Simon.

It is strange that this, along with the forced carries, seperates it from all other great golf courses.  Is it really a great course for the short hitter, elderly, or casual player in the the way that Royal Melbourne, Cypress Point, St Andrews and NGLA are? 

How is a 200+ yard carry over the ocean "fun" for an elderly/short hitter? I am not knocking CPC as it is my #1 course, but to knock PV for its difficulty and not mention CPC's difficult carry is absurd. And please don't tell me someone is going to play around to the left because that certainly is not fun.

Jim,

My thoughts exactly.  I was on a pretty good score when I came to 16 at CPC.  I hit 3 drivers in the water.  I still loved it!!  I am neither elderley or short but that day there was no way I could get there.....there was also no way I wasnt going to try.  

S

[Tom Huckaby]

Sorry Jim - I agree with your overall point - what's good for the goose is good for the gander - just you try to tell the man I am standing with there that he didn't have any fun going left on the pictured golf hole.  For him, the 100 yard carry going left was as heroic as the carry at the green for you and me.  It's all a matter of abilities and perspective, my friend.

[TEPaul]

"How is a 200+ yard carry over the ocean "fun" for an elderly/short hitter? I am not knocking CPC as it is my #1 course, but to knock PV for its difficulty and not mention CPC's difficult carry is absurd. And please don't tell me someone is going to play around to the left because that certainly is not fun."



Jim Franklin:

If a golfer cannot possibly come close to hitting a golf ball 200 yards in the air anyway, then why in the world would it not be fun for him to play around to the left on Cypress Point's #16?

[JNC Lyon]

Out of those courses, only Pine Valley has a water hazard without flowing water.

Which is why Pine Valley doesn't belong on a list of great courses.  

I have been fortunate enough to play 6 of Tom's listed 10s in the first post.  I can only assume you are jesting that PV doesnt belong in that list.  It is obviously all down to personal preference and as a links golfer through and through, it hurts me to say, that it is the best course I have ever played.  Actually it doesnt hurt that much at all.

Partly jesting, Simon.

It is strange that this, along with the forced carries, seperates it from all other great golf courses.  Is it really a great course for the short hitter, elderly, or casual player in the the way that Royal Melbourne, Cypress Point, St Andrews and NGLA are? 

How is a 200+ yard carry over the ocean "fun" for an elderly/short hitter? I am not knocking CPC as it is my #1 course, but to knock PV for its difficulty and not mention CPC's difficult carry is absurd. And please don't tell me someone is going to play around to the left because that certainly is not fun.

There is a story in The Spirit of St. Andrews about a man who wins the 16th Hole at CPC in a match by playing the hole entirely with a putter.  I'm pretty sure that 200-yard carry is not non-negotiable.

[Gene Greco]

Sorry Jim - I agree with your overall point - what's good for the goose is good for the gander - just you try to tell the man I am standing with there that he didn't have any fun going left on the pictured golf hole.  For him, the 100 yard carry going left was as heroic as the carry at the green for you and me.  It's all a matter of abilities and perspective, my friend.

Great post.

[TEPaul]

Peter Pallotta:

I just noticed your Post #4. That's wonderful!

It makes me appreciate more the dynamics of the way various golfers look at golf courses and golf architecture and the broad diversity of approach and opinion.

The spectrum of that diversity on this thread seems to be your poetic approach counterpoised to JC Jones' attempt to somehow fit all the criteria into something akin to a logical legal brief.

I suppose, nay, I believe, that both might be right as rain for the particular person which pretty much goes to confirm the usefulness of Tom Doak's suggestion that we all need to go out there and learn these things for ourselves.

[JC Jones]

Tom Paul,

I did not ask Tom D any further questions after he said he was done posting so I am not sure from where your question is coming.  Nevertheless, I think you know the answer based on our many conversations.

[Ben Sims]

I have asked a few members of top clubs what their first impression/thought of their course was, and what their last impression/thought was.  

Each one has answered differently to include things like culture, ambiance, intimacy, subtlety.  But the common thread I am starting to see is this.  Only the best courses have had the comment made that they are as enamored with the course now as they were the first time they played it.  That in years in of membership, they are no closer to fully understanding the course than they were on day one.  

In the end, a course must hold interest over the course of time.  It isn't en vogue or du jour or forgotten, it's timeless.  That's a 10 in my book.  

[Rory Connaughton]

David:

  If you walk out to the 2nd fairway at PV and make a right and walk deep into the woods, you may find flowing water.  I am told by a friend that has been a PV member for over 40 years that he once won 2 when his opponent deposited his ball in the hazard! :-)

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul,
I did not ask Tom D any further questions after he said he was done posting so I am not sure from where your question is coming."


JC:

I realize that. Assuming you read Doak's last response to you on this thread I merely asked you if you were going to accept what he said to you in that response or whether you were going to try to get him to say something else or something different.

[JESII]

Out of those courses, only Pine Valley has a water hazard without flowing water.

Which is why Pine Valley doesn't belong on a list of great courses.  

How about Shinnecock?


Maybe I just don't understand what "a water hazard without flowing water" is...

[Mark McKeever]

David:

  If you walk out to the 2nd fairway at PV and make a right and walk deep into the woods, you may find flowing water.  I am told by a friend that has been a PV member for over 40 years that he once won 2 when his opponent deposited his ball in the hazard! :-)

I tried looking on Google maps after you brought this up over the weekend.  I scanned around but can't see it..  Is it more like a creek or a small pond in the woods Rory?

Mark

[TEPaul]

Rory:

I did not realize there was any kind of water hazard to the right of #2 at Pine Valley. There is a very nice house to the right of that fairway, fairly far into the trees. Matter of fact, that particular house was the second one on that property just after Crump's bungalow and it's where Jim Govan, Crump's foreman, pro, greenkeeper, club-maker lived with his family until one of his children got very sick inexplicably and Mrs. Govan made him move.

But if David Elvin really thinks PV does not deserve to be listed as it is because the water in the water hazards doesn't flow perhaps next time I'm there I could prevail upon the club to go down to Home Depot and get a few small engines and basically get the water in those WH's flowing a little bit!  

[Rory Connaughton]

Tom and Mark:

  I was alerted to the presence of the hazard by Tom's and my mutual friend King Knox.  King was playing in an event known as the Amish Open against a former partner of mine (and longtime PV member) when the shot was struck and the little stream discovered.  In fact, the story goes that King located the ball and alerted his opponent to the fact that the ball was in the hazard only to hear in response, "there's no g d damned hazard in here!" I have no idea whether it flows constantly or not nor have I seen it but in my mind's eye, there is running water at PV :-)

[TEPaul]

Sully:

Basically Shinnecock only has a single real WH in play and it's the pond on #6 which even the club has pretty much always admitted is about the poorest looking excuse for a water hazard imaginable.  

But Wayno Morrison is on the job as an historical consultant and he has recently recommended that pathetic excuse for a pond (WH) on #6 be fitted out with a mechanism that can shoot a cascade of water up to 100 ft in the air and actually somewhat blind the green to an approach if a drive is not placed in the right strategic position.

[Mark McKeever]

Not enought to make you aim left though I guess!

Mark

[JC Jones]

Mr Paul,

I have not laid out any criteria nor tried to fit anything into a mold.  I have , quite simPly, asked questions.  Any inferences made are your own.

[JESII]

Is a stream considered a hazard if there are no stakes or lines?

[TEPaul]

Rory:

I think what King was referring to is that little yellow and green plastic child's pool that sat on the lawn of that house to the right of #2.  And you are right, when the garden hose was in it, it probably could've been considered flowing water! 

As you probably know, because PV has always wanted it that way, there is very, very little free relief on that golf course, or I should say on that property.

[JESII]

Actually, as the story goes, relief can be quite expensive...

[Jim Franklin]

"How is a 200+ yard carry over the ocean "fun" for an elderly/short hitter? I am not knocking CPC as it is my #1 course, but to knock PV for its difficulty and not mention CPC's difficult carry is absurd. And please don't tell me someone is going to play around to the left because that certainly is not fun."



Jim Franklin:

If a golfer cannot possibly come close to hitting a golf ball 200 yards in the air anyway, then why in the world would it not be fun for him to play around to the left on Cypress Point's #16?

There is still a forced carry to get to the "fairway" on #16. It may be fun, but to penalize PV for forced carries and not CPC doesn't make sense is all I am saying.

[Rory Connaughton]

Tom he didn't mention the pool but perhaps he left that part out to help preserve the mystique.
Jim, without lines or stakes, I don't know. I suspect that your command of the rules is better than mine but whether or not a hazard as defined by the rules, the area described to me sounded pretty hazardous.

[TEPaul]

"Is a stream considered a hazard if there are no stakes or lines?"


Yes, and by analogy to I suppose Dec 26-2 a golfer should determine the natural boundary of the WH.

Rory:

That particular yellow and green plastic child's pool that had a diameter of perhaps 10 feet that King's opponent apparently found his ball in far to the right of #2 fairway could be considered a very dangerous hazard because the kid who lived there was one unattractive and semi-violent brat, for sure. If King's opponent even attempted to retrieve his golf ball and take Rule 26 relief from that WH the chances of him getting very seriously whacked upside the head by that kid with something like a hard rubber duckie was very good indeed.

And frankly, Rory, the reality of a WH to the right of #2 in that situation with King Knox is really not the question at all. The real question is if during that particular incident King was wearing his yellow and white golf shoes or his red and white golf shoes?

[JESII]

Rory,

The only place on that course where it makes sense is way right off #14. There's a little stream system running out of the pond that could be what he's talking about. #18 has some retention ponds way right as well, but they don't "run" or "flow" so much. #2 could only really have a small little stream running out of an underground spring or something, and only in a short little area.

[TEPaul]

"There is still a forced carry to get to the "fairway" on #16. It may be fun, but to penalize PV for forced carries and not CPC doesn't make sense is all I am saying."


Jimbo Franklin:

No it really doesn't make sense and either does the person who was penalizing PV for forced carries!