Have We Really Never Discussed This Hole in Detail? 14 St. George's

[Mark Bourgeois]

All I could find were two "course-level" threads (not specific to 14) by I. Andrew discussing his 2003-04 restoration work of the course. (With original photos apparently no longer available. )

What's the right play off the tee?

I think the strategy off the tee is to hit it as far right as you're comfortable.  The green opens up from the right side and the risk to carry the stream reduces.  But too far right and you risk hitting into the stream or trees, or into gnarly rough that will complicate your second shot.

There's another risk to going right, too: as is the defining characteristic of of this excellent Stanley Thompson course, a slope threatens to catch your ball, giving an awkward stance for your next shot, or perhaps even worse kick your tee shot too far right and into the rough.  As the yardage book below indicates, if you've chosen the right tee your tee shot will carry just to or over the precipice, raising all kinds of risks associated with getting hung up or kicking rightward.

The safer (flatter) route off the tee is left, then, but I have to think this is the less than ideal approach: you have to carry the stream and a bunker to a green that is wide from this angle but not deep.  Going long carries its own perils, too, so you can't just blow it over stream and bunker with impunity.

But I'm using "think" throughout this commentary because the approach shot is no bargain from either side.  Although the green does open up from the right, it presents a Cape Hole type of challenge: the green looks pretty skinny wedged in there between the stream and bunker on the left and a bunker plus the slope on the right! Kinda like a Scylla and Charybdis deal then...

Further confusion came after reading the 1930 comments of some guy named B.L. Anderson of the Royal Canadian Golf Association: "The green is barely visible from the tee and requires a carefully placed tee shot along the boundary line on the left." (Re "barely visible:" the hole has been lengthened, and I assume moving back the tees meant locating them on higher ground.)

Which reminds me, shooting down the left is no risk-free thing, either, as Oscar Bravo lurks over there.

So I think you want to play it down the right but make sure your landing area over there isn't going to kick your ball over into the rough.  I think.

1. How would you play this hole?

2. The bunker front-left of the green -- the one lodged between the green and the stream -- is not a Thompson original.  Would you remove it, and if so, how would you choose maintain the grass on that slope?  Would removing the bunker make the hole harder for low handicaps, high handicaps, both, or neither? Would removal change the risk-reward for approaches from the left?  What about from the right?  Would removal tilt the balance so that the golfer always sought to approach from one side or another?

3. What are other good examples of streams being used in concert with green complexes to create angles?  The ones that come immediately to my mind are 17 Royal New Kent and MacKenzie's version of 16 ANGC. (I guess technically that would be nee 7 ANGC.)

Here's the yardage-book entry for the hole -- not sure it's really representative.  For example, the tees I think are farther left than appear in this schematic. Nevertheless, it does provide yardages:



Google aerial -- trust me, it ain't this flat!



Tee shot: "basin and range" pretty typical of this course -- note ridgeline is jusst where your tee shot will carry:



Approach from center of fairway: seems to me left is not the way to go...



View of green showing perspective of golfer approaching from right side: green opens up, but stream runs all the way down -- neither a hooker nor a slicer be!


Thanks
Mark

Keywords
Stanley Thompson
Par 4s
Streams
Lateral Hazards
Risk and Reward
Option-Laden
St. George's
Toronto

[wsmorrison]

How would you feel if the left green side bunker was not there and the green brought closer to the fall off to the stream?  That is one awesome diagonal defined by the stream that could have been replicated on the green and seems to be muted by the bunker and the slope on the green from the bunker away from the stream (caused by sand splash over time?).

[Mark Bourgeois]

Wayne,

I'd feel good!

What do you think:
2. ...how would you choose maintain the grass on that slope?  Would removing the bunker make the hole harder for low handicaps, high handicaps, both, or neither? Would removal change the risk-reward for approaches from the left?  What about from the right?  Would removal tilt the balance so that the golfer always sought to approach from one side or another?

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

"We" should photoshop that to see how it would look.

Answering my own question, I would guess the left side approach would lose appeal.

[Robert Thompson]

This is an intriguing hole, and the contour of the fairway was brought back into play when Ian added a new set of back tees. Now to get it to the flat area, you have to bomb it, or be left with two options -- play it back for a flat lie, or expect the ball to stop on a downhill lie. If you are down the right side you could run a ball in, but it would be nearly impossible from the left.
Secondarily, a shot from the left forces the player to tackle the green from an angle, and usually from quite a yardage.
Of course, there is a third option, which is to play the ball short of the green and pitch it on -- the target from the left is larger that way with more room for error.
A terrific hole, with great use of the natural land, and even more remarkably -- not even the past four on the course (that would be #2).
Interestingly, the club has had a reciprocol with Oak Hill. For a while few from Rochester came up, but those that did were astounded, apparently, by the quality of St. George's. Truth be told, with the third green reworked to a less extreme slope (and it was redone for the 1968 Open -- it has nothing to do with the original design), St. George's would be hands down better than Oak Hill. Probably already is.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Robert

That comment by Anderson: was there ever a time when left off the tee was better than right?

I agree 2 does a great job with angles in 3D, and I loved the green site even as I understand Ian's distaste for its current location.

But back to 14: what about that front left greenside bunker?  I really like the idea of going out right, then to come in having to sort of flirt with the stream all the way down. Repeat: all the way down.  How many holes on this earth give you that kind of thrill?

Mark

[Peter Pallotta]

Robert - thanks for that post. That was an excellent description of a golf hole and how it plays.
Mark - thanks for putting him up to it.

Peter

[Ian Andrew]

How would you feel if the left green side bunker was not there and the green brought closer to the fall off to the stream?  That is one awesome diagonal defined by the stream that could have been replicated on the green and seems to be muted by the bunker and the slope on the green from the bunker away from the stream (caused by sand splash over time?).

Wayne,

The stream fronted the green originally, but waas moved when a 48" diameter storm sewer was placed where the creek used to be. It runs right underneath the bunker - within a few feet. The bunker was added - by Robbie Robinson - to replace the stream in the 1960's.

This left bunker is the worst bunker on the course - there is a story to explain it - but this is not the forum. The other two are accurate but there are two additional bunkers missing where the trees on the right are. I'm grumpy just looking at that left bunker.
I would rather remove it and leave a steep bank down to the flast by the creek.

By the way a new back tee was added when we did the bunker work to keep tee shots from slinging down to the bottom of the hill. One other important factor of this hole is the green is not as long as it used to be with part of the front missing and since the green is flat this further complicates the appraoch.

[Robert Thompson]

Robert

That comment by Anderson: was there ever a time when left off the tee was better than right?

I agree 2 does a great job with angles in 3D, and I loved the green site even as I understand Ian's distaste for its current location.

But back to 14: what about that front left greenside bunker?  I really like the idea of going out right, then to come in having to sort of flirt with the stream all the way down. Repeat: all the way down.  How many holes on this earth give you that kind of thrill?

Mark

Mark: Ian would know better than I -- he's a much older chap -- but I'd guess, given the green, that right was always the better bet, especially since you were likely coming in with a much longer iron than you currently do. I killed one down the right last time I was there and had 8-iron in. But 6-iron and longer is still pretty common. Unless you hit it like Tiger, that would bring both the front bunker and the back rough into play -- and those aren't easy shots.

However, I wonder if in its day, before a lot of irrigation, the way to sling the ball down was to hit a draw -- and therefore you'd end up likely on the left. Still not the preferable angle, but perhaps if you played for length as opposed to position, then you were forced to hit a tougher approach with a shorter iron. Just a thought.

[wsmorrison]

Thank you for the explanation, hopefully we'll see each other sometime soon and I can get the inside scoop 

I was hoping that Thompson used the diagonal of the stream.  Diagonals are one of my favorite devices around greens, especially when the top lines of bunkers are built in such a way as to fool the eye into hiding the distance differential.

There is a similar, though much shorter hole at Cascades (6th).  Flynn was asked to move the green from the left side of the stream and place it on the right with a bunker between the stream and the green in a similar fashion.  I liked the original version of that hole and think the original version of the St. George's hole would have been excellent.  Can you take out the bunker and still have the drain work?  With a grassy bank, how low would you cut the grass--like the approach?  Did the green originally slope right to left?  That would be a high demand but very cool shot test!

Sorry to be armchair architecting.  Thompson really appeals to me, but I only know him in photographs.  I'll have to see first hand one of these days.

Thanks for the discussion, boys.  I think we should have more single hole discussions like this.  I'll work on one that is also little discussed.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Yes I want to know how people would maintain tha bank, too, as well as how much slope to give that bank and how far to extend that green.

Ian has supplied the real world answer but I would like the perfect world answer.

I have been thinking about the rough down the right, too.  Is it possible or desirable to create a situation where the penalty was exacted without it? What could be done there?

I will try to past pics or graphics of the holes referenced...

Mark

[Mark_Fine]

Here are a few photos to add to the discussion.    

This is the #6 hole Wayne mentioned at Cascades




Here is a close up of the greenside bunker




Here is a photo of #4 at Lancaster (I don't have an updated one but maybe Wayne does)

[Mark Bourgeois]

Re Cascades 6, is flirting with the stream for position really the play?  I recall playing out to the left without disadvantage.

Here's the 17th at Royal New Kent -- all along the hole, the golfer flirts with the stream.

Off the tee, the golfer must challenge the stream right if he wants to have a go in two: (fairway and bunkers on far slope are of 10th hole)



On the second / third shot, the golfer must cross the stream, to a green well-oriented to the direction of the stream.  The green opens up from the right and really skinnies up from the left.  The golfer choosing the safe play will hit his second "equal" or nearly so to the green, then play a difficult finesse wedge over the stream.  But the golfer who has taken the aggressive line down the right must still flirt with the stream -- just like 14 St. George's.

Google aerial



Yardage book


Mark

PS Here's an embarrassingly ham-handed attempt to Photoshop 14 St. George's:

[Ian Andrew]

This is what it should look like - there would be one more bunker on the right off the photo - it was five bunkers

[Mark Bourgeois]

Comrade Stalin would have made you a valued member of his staff, Ian.  That's professional-grade photoshopping!

I like how that slope coming down the front right of the green would affect play coming in from the right.  That would be a powerful visual signal raising golfer fears of a kick left into the stream.

From the photoshop photo, it looks like the ideal play would be from the POV shown, which would make position A not so much Right but Right-of-Center.  Is that correct?

Also, that bunker second from left, the one that looks like a Ninja throwing star, Thompson did a lot of these "splotch" bunkers on the course -- and you did an excellent restoration job.  But were you able to find anything indicating Thompson's intent, i.e., why he used such shapes?

They are very unique in the golf world -- certainly at the time this course opened -- yes?

Thanks
Mark

[wsmorrison]

I like the changes in your Photoshop revision, Ian.

Here is Flynn's drawing for the original 6th at Cascades




Tee shot for 4th at Lancaster



Landing area



Approach

[Mark Bourgeois]

Wayne

It looks like the fairway mowing lines don't encourage a shot that flirts with the left bank of that stream, but that the green angle would encourage that side.  Is that correct?  And was that "saving" rough always there between fairway and stream?

Is the tree on the hillside in play for shots approaching from lies close to the stream?

Mark

[Jeff Doerr]

Mark,

Thanks for the thread! I wanted to see your shot and Ian's Photoshop next to each other.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jeff

Thanks for doing that. I never would have noticed the similarities between the greens of 14 St Georges original / Andrew and 11 Augusta!

Is it feasible to compare those two holes? My next question I struggle to articulate but I think it's important: are the holes similar enough, are they of a broadly-defined type, that we can study where they diverge to learn about that type? To uncover principles both good and bad about a sort of template hole or probably more accurately a certain type of design test or problem for golfers to solve?

Sort of like the old Sesame Street "three of these things go together, one of these things is not the same." Remember?

So, what similarities do the holes share and where do they diverge - and what can we learn about design principles both good and bad from exploring the divergences?

So, which do people prefer out of the differences:
Green, esp left side, protected by pond or stream?
Right side defended by hills or bunker / water?
Limited vs generous opportunity for run ups? (green raised / level w fwy or below fwy grade)
Dominant strat off tee or hole-location dependent?

What else?

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Any thoughts given the pros' play of the hole or your TV / gallery viewing?

[Ben Voelker]

3. What are other good examples of streams being used in concert with green complexes to create angles?  The ones that come immediately to my mind are 17 Royal New Kent and MacKenzie's version of 16 ANGC. (I guess technically that would be nee 7 ANGC.)

I played a new course in Hua Hin, Thailand today called Banyan Golf Club.  Its another one of the resorts in the area, but the course is quite good, with lots of pitch and roll in the fairways and plenty of challenging decisions on the tee and from the fairway.  This thread was still in my mind when I played and #11 has a very similar angle cut by a stream, although its on a par 5.  The site is all flash, so I can't post here, but the link to the layout is below.

http://www.banyanthailand.com/english/Golf/course_guide.php

I like the hole a lot and there is the added dimension of whether to carry your ball over the stream on the second shot.  If not, the best play is from the right side of the fairway, looking down the creek all the way to the green.

Fun hole!

Ben

[Doug Siebert]

What's the right play off the tee?

I think the strategy off the tee is to hit it as far right as you're comfortable.  The green opens up from the right side and the risk to carry the stream reduces.  But too far right and you risk hitting into the stream or trees, or into gnarly rough that will complicate your second shot.

There's another risk to going right, too: as is the defining characteristic of of this excellent Stanley Thompson course, a slope threatens to catch your ball, giving an awkward stance for your next shot, or perhaps even worse kick your tee shot too far right and into the rough.  As the yardage book below indicates, if you've chosen the right tee your tee shot will carry just to or over the precipice, raising all kinds of risks associated with getting hung up or kicking rightward.

The safer (flatter) route off the tee is left, then, but I have to think this is the less than ideal approach: you have to carry the stream and a bunker to a green that is wide from this angle but not deep.  Going long carries its own perils, too, so you can't just blow it over stream and bunker with impunity.

But I'm using "think" throughout this commentary because the approach shot is no bargain from either side.  Although the green does open up from the right, it presents a Cape Hole type of challenge: the green looks pretty skinny wedged in there between the stream and bunker on the left and a bunker plus the slope on the right! Kinda like a Scylla and Charybdis deal then...

This hole is a great example of one that has a different "look" and therefore preferred angle of play depending on one's natural shot shape (or, if you prefer, one's predominant miss)  As someone who will almost always miss left (whether pulled or hooked) playing from the right side would make a lot more nervous because the angle into the green means there's a lot less margin of error to the left before I'm in the water.  Sure, from the left I've got to go over the bunker.....who cares, I can make par from the bunker but I can't from the creek!  The fact the left side offers flatter lies just makes it all the more clear that this is the best play for me.

The hole is 466 yards, so its not one where I'm really thinking birdie on the tee anyway, so I'd feel fine aiming for right edge of the green regardless of the pin position.  Gives me more room to pull it left and if I should hit it exactly where I aim and the pin is back left I'll take my chances with a long two putt.  This looks like a hole that for me is one I'd always be happy to take par on.  Other holes that set up better are where I'd take out my aggressive tendencies