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Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Width, what's it all about ?
« Reply #100 on: August 09, 2010, 03:20:41 PM »
If you google earth a lot of UK courses you will see fairways at 25 yard width. Many see it as defence. Burnham and Berrows are pretty narrow.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

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Re: Width, what's it all about ?
« Reply #101 on: August 09, 2010, 03:50:34 PM »
If you google earth a lot of UK courses you will see fairways at 25 yard width. Many see it as defence. Burnham and Berrows are pretty narrow.

Adrian

I was thinking of B&B and how several fairways are quite tight (though I don't know the yardage) and moreso if guys want to pound out LONG drives.  

1 and 2 are fairly tight.

3 and 4 are a bit tight because of the tee shot hitting perpindicularish to the fairway.  6 is tight and that is not 25 yards wide.  7 is okay and 8 is quite tight now with water and bunkers in the DZ.

10 isn't wide (again because of the angle of the tee shot), but 11, 12 and 13 are decently wide for the tee shots - especially 13.  15 is tight, but 16 is fairly wide.  18 is wide if one lays up, but like 1 and 2, it is quite narrow for the long ball.  

All in all, I would guess at 30 yards average width.  IMO its not wide enough by at least 5 - 10 yards, but the dunes often constrict play.  Usually in summer the course isn't much fun, but this year it has been grand with the rough down.  A guy complained two or three weeks ago about how easy the course was, but he was a 4 capper shooting 77.  Its hard to take that sort of attitude seriously when he doesn't threaten par.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Kline

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Re: Width, what's it all about ?
« Reply #102 on: August 09, 2010, 04:14:31 PM »
I think width of the playing corridor is absolutely necessary. The game is not enjoyable without this width since most players are losing balls, punching out, or hacking out - all of which makes the game too slow. Fairway width is another story. #2 is returning fairway widths. That width is vitally important to the strategy of attacking certain pin placements on almost every hole - and I can point that out to you if you life. I wouldn't say the fairways at Camargo are wide but they are wide enough given the wide playing corridors. This is needed for some angles to attack the pins given the greens and deep, penal bunkers. The Bandon courses need width because of the wind and to attack certain parts of the green. Having played BD in 30 mph winds at the Mid-Am I can assure you the width was needed. Top Mid-Ams were really struggling in that wind. Ballyneal is another great example of width combined with strategy. Fast and firm makes width more necessary imo. But in some instances were the greens don't have tucked hole locations or lack the necessary slopes or the course is maintained too soft fairway width seems to be unnecessary.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Width, what's it all about ?
« Reply #103 on: August 09, 2010, 04:15:51 PM »
They are less than 30 Sean, the 2nd is 19 yards, 18th as well less than 20, 30 are the wide ones. I dont remember it as tight as that, it never seems to play tight, but equally I dont remember long rough. I googled a number of courses to look at aerials and many have fairways at 25 width, which suprised me. I dont suppose it particulary matters as long as the playing corridor is 60-70. I aways found B&B easy and all the low cappers want to play there because its par 71 and the SSS is 73. If the wind blows then its a different story.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width, what's it all about ?
« Reply #104 on: August 09, 2010, 04:42:01 PM »
They are less than 30 Sean, the 2nd is 19 yards, 18th as well less than 20, 30 are the wide ones. I dont remember it as tight as that, it never seems to play tight, but equally I dont remember long rough. I googled a number of courses to look at aerials and many have fairways at 25 width, which suprised me. I dont suppose it particulary matters as long as the playing corridor is 60-70. I aways found B&B easy and all the low cappers want to play there because its par 71 and the SSS is 73. If the wind blows then its a different story.
Adrian

You could be right, but that only reiterates my point that biggest single problem with courses today is a lack of width.  There isn't much point going on about strategy if the course isn't wide enough to make the angles play.  Mind you, at Burnham there aren't many holes which require width because of greens - its because of wind and f&f conditions.  The course is really about driving positions and there aren't many holes I would like to see widened because of angles of approach.  I think it would be good if 7 and 8 were widened to the water to not allow balls to be saved by rough and to play to the insides of the fairway bunkers (make them more centreline hazards).  Same goes for 10 - widen the fairway toward the road to bring oob more into play off the tee  I thnk it used to be this way when Colt designed the hole.  I would like to 16 combined with the 3rd fairway to drag more guys right (into poor position) off the tee.  That is about it and it wouldn't cost the earth or bankrupt the club. In fact, with a strong prevailing wind the course could play tougher with #s 7, 8 & 10 widened.  Most of the holes which would benefit from wider approach angles have dunes blocking access to the width.  The dunes are a double edged sword which create interest but also constrict play.  This is why I am always in favour of flatter more open holes on dunesy properties.

Ciao   

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Width, what's it all about ?
« Reply #105 on: August 09, 2010, 07:08:35 PM »
Adrian,

19 yards ?

I have to question the wisdom of having a fairway that's narrower than a green.

What's the length of the hole where the fairway is 19 yards wide and how difficult is the rough ?

And, does the course get a wind on a typical day ?

At 19 yards, you're talking about a target that the eye visualizes at about 10 yards.

It's one thing if it's a 280 yard hole, but, if it's a 380 or 480 par 4, that would seem to be a flaw in design or maintainance.

Do you have the equivalent of historicaerials.com ?
If so, look at the history of the fairway widths over the last few decades and let us know if they've always been that way, or, if the narrowing is a recent event.

Dave McCollum

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Re: Width, what's it all about ?
« Reply #106 on: August 09, 2010, 10:05:05 PM »
As usual, I got to this topic late and was only half way through the discussion before feeling the urge to shoot off my mouth.  The urge is based on an interesting experience I had while playing DM Kidd’s Huntsman Springs (Driggs, Idaho).  Playing in my group for this outing was a club pro playing with his superintendant.  Quite a few times the two of them would critique the hole standing on the tee or looking at an approach.  Mainly it was the pro “mentoring” his super about bad features that were unnecessary or even the dreaded “unfair.”

I have played or looked at a couple of Kidd courses before (Bandon, Tetherow) and expected a lot of visual deception: tee shots that looked much more intimidating than they actually were and very tricky, undulating greens, etc.  For the most part, I was amused by what I overheard because I thought that the pro was really missing the crucial points about the design.  I won’t go into a full description of the course, but one must understand that the course was totally manufactured on a really difficult site, a swampy mountain cow pasture as flat as a pool table and essentially a vast wetland.  I think there was some form of water on at least 16 of the 18 holes, maybe all 18, and venturing off the course into the native often felt like walking on a grass waterbed.  That Kidd could build a playable course on such a site is a pretty impressive accomplishment and perhaps a hydraulic engineering marvel.  That it could also be aesthetically pleasing, fun to play, and strategically very interesting is a testament to his talent.  There was a lot of eye candy (bunkers in front of tees), a lot masterly visual deception, and many options and choices on almost every hole.

As this pertains to width, frequently it didn’t look like there was much and sometimes there were surprises hidden behind mounds, bunkers, and other features, but there was plenty of width to the playing corridors.  We were playing the middle tees, so, as an average player, I looked at the yardage book, calculated what I could handle if I made a good shot, ignored the safe bail outs, and whaled away with aggressive lines over the sand pits and gnarly features.  It was like I was a scratch player playing the tips on a difficult, testing course.  I’m not and it wasn’t because when we got out to our drives, there was invariably a lot more width than it seemed from the tee.  For the most part it worked all day and was a blast to play.

The pro kept complaining to his mate all day about how the course was so impossible to play for the average golfer, and here I was, the old, overweight, average 12 capper, having a ball and playing the course reasonably well, even giving him a bit of a game for most of the round.  Basically, I got the strategy of the bunkering and slopes, expected the deceptions, and, using a yardage book, could fairly easily decide what was within my powers to challenge or go around.  He didn’t and could only see the intimidation factor. 
I finally couldn’t stand listening to his whining any longer and bet him a beer there was a lot more room beyond some fearsome bunker than it appeared from the tee.  When we got to our tee shots, at first he didn’t agree that he had lost.  “Look where my ball is.  It barely missed getting in that deep bunker up there.”  He relented when I said that he’d be right beside me if he hadn’t been playing the ladies tees.  Oh yeah, right.

For the pro this was sort of a revenge round.  He’d played the course a week before from the tips with his son, a top amateur player.  It had humbled them both.  He played well this time and probably played around even par (in a 2-man scramble format, but his partner wasn’t much help).  Even so, I think he still saw a completely different course than I did.  For me, it was a very interesting lesson in both playing width and visual deception.  And lots of fun. 

Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Width, what's it all about ?
« Reply #107 on: August 09, 2010, 10:08:00 PM »
This thread seems to have abandonded the perspective of the circus tour players.  That is a good thing IMHO because 99% of the rounds played are by people that are not multi-logo wearing automotons.
As I said before, if the world had the misfortune of having me as an arch I would be focusing on making the course merely fun and interesting - with a keen eye toward giving the participant the sensation of being in Nature and far away from the office/highway/airport world.  An elevation and restoration of the persons spirit is what I'd be after.  Not beating them up all day long.  How to make it playable yet with enough of a challenge is the magic trick.
As ever, just my perspective.