[Josh Stevens]

Played a place call The Wisley last week, just outside London.  I will have to recheck the course guide, but there must have been perhaps 7 holes with tee to green water hazards down one side, and then with the odd green frontage stream thrown in for good measure. 

I dont mind the odd one or two, but I must confess I got to the point where I would walk onto a tee and do a bit of a double take thinking I had got lost and gone back to a hole I had played before - they just all looked the same.  It really wasnt a very nice experience - I have not played too many RTJ courses, but I cant imagine this one is regarded as one of his better efforts.  Not sure I have seen many courses that looked so out of place as this one - possibly one of those "seemed a good idea at the time" kind of places that we saw so many of during the 80's and early 90's. 
And of course they have and continue to spend millions on the place???  All very strange.

[Adam Lawrence]

I am not generally a fan of too much water, but a bit of context is important. Wisley is built on floodplain, and the ability to detain floodwater was a key part of the planning consent. Hence, lots of lakes.

[Phil_the_Author]

Fascinating and coincidental for me!

This thread was the next one after the one about what one may learn if they sspent a week on a course construction site that they don't know about already. I posted this:

"For me it would be a chance to learn the under-structure of a course as it is being built. The nuts and bolts that without which the top simply wouldn't work... In other words, the why's and how's of drainage. The types of materials that go underneath to promote healthy turf. An understanding of why an undulation is simply that while many other times it is a necessity that allows the overall drainage to work... How routing a course also involves the intertwining, not only of what is seen but what is not; those same underpinnings that allow for an entire area, not just a green site for example, but say several holes, fairways and all, to drain water in ways that will not unexpectedly prevent water from draining elsewhere."

This sounds exactly the situation that I was describing. One where someone sees the top and yet doesn't understand the necessity for why it is as it is (No offense meant Josh). How many would see this course as Josh did where after a few holes they keep saying "water again? What was he thinking of?"

And maybe that's the point, that we simply don't know WHAT the architect was thinking of. Those details known to him and his crew that never get written about yet because they are either required by the site or mandated by the local municipalities, that the finished product becomes less than what it could have been. We'll judge the finished product and the abilities of the architect who designed it in the same way that most of us do cars; based simply on how it looks rather than how it runs, the maintenance needed to keep it running that way, the requirements of the municipalities where we live for emissions, etc...

Hopefully I didn't hijack this thread for that wasn't my aim. I just had my thoughts from the other one fresh in my mind and this case is a prime exaqmple of what I was thinking...

Water is both life and death to a golf course and in ways that few of us, including myself, simply don't understand.

[David_Tepper]

Map of the 27 holes at the Wisley:

http://www.thewisley.com/CourseGuide.aspx

[David_Tepper]

Josh -

Have you ever played a course where gorse is in play on a good number of holes? Do you view gorse as a hazard/obstacle on a course any differently than water?

At least with water as a hazard, one gets to drop at the point of entry to the hazard with a penalty stroke. Losing a ball in a bank of gorse is both stroke and distance.

DT

[Ross Tuddenham]

Philip to keep your car analogy going, I do not know why some cars handle better than others or what constraints the engineers were under in setting up/designing suspension, dampers etc.  However, I do care how the car handles and can still dislike cars that do not meet my desires.

So although the course may have been constructed under certain constraints, and in this case with a surplus of water, these do not matter to the player standing on the tee.

[Tom_Doak]

Q.  How many tee to green water hazards is too many?

A.  One more than what existed naturally on the property.

[Garland Bayley]

Q.  How many tee to green water hazards is too many?

A.  One more than what existed naturally on the property.

Tom's reading my mind again!

[Michael Huber]

Q.  How many tee to green water hazards is too many?

A.  One more than what existed naturally on the property.

Tom,

Is your favorite water hazard located on the 18th hole at torrey pines by any chance?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

2

[Andrew Summerell]

I'm not a big fan of too much water/lakes, but I prefer it to courses that are choked with tall trees.

[Josh Stevens]

I wasnt suggesting there wasnt a good reason for all the lakes.  It is a low lying property - one thing that is noticeable is the canal that runs along one boundary with those nice little house boats bobbing along.  I can recall at one point standing on a green or a tee that was possibly 50 yards from the canal and probably 4-5 m below its water level.  Clearly the canal is an artificial construct and so its water level is probably elevated but it did illustrate the drainage issue - how do they get the stuff off the property.

I am sure therefore that some lakes are necessary but it doesnt mean I have to like them.  I do get the sense that rather than trying to devise some more discrete way of getting rid of it, they have taken the least hard approach and just dug lots of lakes and streams (yes that is an ignorant comment and will surely get some angry reactions) that result in a course that does not appeal to me - a personal view I will admit.

And yes I have played lots of gorse or heather courses that one could argue offer a similar hazard - but of course we all know water is mentally different, I always maintain hope that I can find my ball in the scrub.

[Jim Nugent]

Q.  How many tee to green water hazards is too many?

A.  One more than what existed naturally on the property.

Were the water hazards at Pine Valley and NGLA naturally there, or did the designers/builders add/enhance them? 

[Ben Voelker]

Q.  How many tee to green water hazards is too many?

A.  One more than what existed naturally on the property.

I sense this is only a half serious statement ...but why are unnatural water features treated any differently than unnatural sand pits and contours?

I am not a big proponent of an abundance of "lakes" on a golf course, but isn't moderation the remedy assuming they are done properly?

Ben

[Tom_Doak]

Were the water hazards at Pine Valley and NGLA naturally there, or did the designers/builders add/enhance them? 

I'm pretty sure Peconic Bay and Sebonac Inlet were there at National.  I don't know about the small pond on #9.  I believe the water on #13 was part of the inlet but they may have enhanced it ... there were a few less environmental rules in 1909!

The ponds at Pine Valley were dammed up from natural flowing streams.  There is actually a very cool control structure for the pond on #18 which the late Mr. Steineger showed me thirty summers ago.  But, Pine Valley is the exception to many rules!!

Q.  How many tee to green water hazards is too many?

A.  One more than what existed naturally on the property.

I sense this is only a half serious statement ...but why are unnatural water features treated any differently than unnatural sand pits and contours?

I am not a big proponent of an abundance of "lakes" on a golf course, but isn't moderation the remedy assuming they are done properly?

Ben

Ben:

The statement was about 90% serious.  A lot of architects and even a lot of golfers believe water is an essential element in a golf course.  [They've obviously never been to Royal Melbourne or Kingston Heath.]  As a result, there are many unnatural and unnecessary ponds on golf courses across America, and I don't want to add to the list.

"Moderation" to me is zero added water hazards unless you have other reasons for them besides as a hazard.  It is much harder to build a good-looking pond than to build a good-looking bunker or contour; you often have engineers involved who have too many rules laid out.

[Carl Nichols]

It is much harder to build a good-looking pond than to build a good-looking bunker or contour; you often have engineers involved who have too many rules laid out.

Tom:
What do you think is the best-looking, but obviously built by man, pond or lake on a golf course? 

[Tom_Doak]

It is much harder to build a good-looking pond than to build a good-looking bunker or contour; you often have engineers involved who have too many rules laid out.

Tom:
What do you think is the best-looking, but obviously built by man, pond or lake on a golf course? 

I am tempted to say "none of them," but only because I don't have a good answer to your question.  I've honestly never thought much about it.  One thing I can say with reasonable certainty is that none of my own courses have any good candidates for the honor!

Maybe you should start a separate thread about this while I think about it a bit.

[Ben Voelker]

I'm pretty sure Peconic Bay and Sebonac Inlet were there at National.  I don't know about the small pond on #9.  I believe the water on #13 was part of the inlet but they may have enhanced it ... there were a few less environmental rules in 1909!

"Moderation" to me is zero added water hazards unless you have other reasons for them besides as a hazard.  It is much harder to build a good-looking pond than to build a good-looking bunker or contour; you often have engineers involved who have too many rules laid out.

Tom,

I realize I am picking and choosing by combining these two quotes, but I was curious if you are implying what I read from it, which is that part of the problem are the environmental restrictions on the creation of water features in today's construction?

I am completely with you regarding the lack of necessity of ponds or lakes to create great golf courses.  Sand Hills is the best course I have played, and probably will ever play, and I couldn't imagine a lake or pond fitting within the style and philosophy of that course.  It just seems that given the proper circumstances, which maybe don't exist in this day and age, and attention to detail, a water feature can be an addition to a course when used sparingly.

Ben

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