Can you answer Pete Dye's Question?

[Randy Thompson]

Kohler felt their was a market or need to create something from the ole country and bring some of the ole country design style to the American market and hired dye asking him to create something along these guidelines. The property was not probalby suited for this as well as the Bandons courses and yes alot had to be created. i respect what were Kohler´s concepts and what he brought to american golf market at that time. My opinion is that Dye did as good of a job as any man alive could have with that property and trying to full fill his clients desires even if it was manufactured in comparrison to the great natural sites of Bandon. You really should not try to compare the two and I am sure Dye never gave much thought to the question as he was there on a mission, trying to make sure the course was at its maximum potential for the last major event of the year. If you know him, you know he hates all the media trying to make comparrisons and ratings. He does what he does with passion and we should be glad that he has done this for so many years and hopefully we will be blessed with a few more of his works in the near future before he is unable to do so!

[Jud_T]

Whistling Straights doesn't even deserve to be in the same thread as Pac Dunes.

[Ivan Lipko]

Whistling Straits is magestic, beautiful and really difficult, BUT it is also unnatural, not fast and firm and has some strange features like for examplse water on the 5th hole.

BD (never played there but saw a lot of photos) are even more scenic, beautiful, look natural (they are, BTW) and play fast and firm most of the time. Should be insane actually.

[Shane Wright]

Kohler felt their was a market or need to create something from the ole country and bring some of the ole country design style to the American market and hired dye asking him to create something along these guidelines. The property was not probalby suited for this as well as the Bandons courses and yes alot had to be created. i respect what were Kohler´s concepts and what he brought to american golf market at that time. My opinion is that Dye did as good of a job as any man alive could have with that property and trying to full fill his clients desires even if it was manufactured in comparrison to the great natural sites of Bandon. You really should not try to compare the two and I am sure Dye never gave much thought to the question as he was there on a mission, trying to make sure the course was at its maximum potential for the last major event of the year. If you know him, you know he hates all the media trying to make comparrisons and ratings. He does what he does with passion and we should be glad that he has done this for so many years and hopefully we will be blessed with a few more of his works in the near future before he is unable to do so!

Very well said

[Scott Szabo]

Whistling Straights doesn't even deserve to be in the same thread as Pac Dunes.

Wow - seriously?  Are you saying PD is simply that good or WS that bad?  I know a few who have played WS and thought it was pretty cool.  Never played either but a statement like this seems a bit out of place.  Could you clarify your position a bit so I can better understand?

From Ran's review - "Starting in earnest in the 1960s, architects gained ready access to heavy earth moving equipment. Interestingly (and tellingly) enough, course design simultaneously suffered as architects were unsure how best to use their new toys. Pete Dye at Whistling Straits represents one of man’s boldest and most comprehensive uses of such heavy equipment in simulating nature and her contours. Make no mistake – man will never capture the subtleties and nuances found in nature but as none previously existed here, Dye’s effort is an heroic attempt and one every architecture student should see."  Doesn't sound too bad to me....

[Mac Plumart]

Kohler felt their was a market or need to create something from the ole country and bring some of the ole country design style to the American market and hired dye asking him to create something along these guidelines. The property was not probalby suited for this as well as the Bandons courses and yes alot had to be created. i respect what were Kohler´s concepts and what he brought to american golf market at that time. My opinion is that Dye did as good of a job as any man alive could have with that property and trying to full fill his clients desires even if it was manufactured in comparrison to the great natural sites of Bandon. You really should not try to compare the two and I am sure Dye never gave much thought to the question as he was there on a mission, trying to make sure the course was at its maximum potential for the last major event of the year. If you know him, you know he hates all the media trying to make comparrisons and ratings. He does what he does with passion and we should be glad that he has done this for so many years and hopefully we will be blessed with a few more of his works in the near future before he is unable to do so!

Very well said

Oh man...is this the post of the year?  Nice work Randy.  And I second the, "very well said" comment.  Very well said!

[Jud_T]

Scott,
WS is a good, not great track as described above.  Top 100 course.  Pac Dunes is one of the top handful of courses in the country.  I'd be 10-0 on plays.

[Scott Szabo]

Jud,

Golf Week has PD ranked #2 in its Top 100 Modern Courses, with Whistling Straits at #3.  Doesn't sound like the separation is that far to me.  Any particular reasons why you think WS is so much below PD?  Curiosity has gotten the best of me...

 

[Anthony Gray]

There's a big difference between the big lake that Whistling Straits sits on and the one that the Bandon courses sit on...

Can you see the opposite shore of either body of water? What is the elevation of each along the shore?

  Water as far as you can see at both. Bandon has an higher elevation and much steeper cliff you can not walk down.WS you can get to the water easily.Bandon is obvious while WS is obvious lake.

  Tony Tenga  

[Anthony Gray]

Whistling Straights doesn't even deserve to be in the same thread as Pac Dunes.

  Jud........

[Jud_T]

Scott,

Whistling Straights is completely artificial and has several holes that are dubious from a gca point of view (5, 18).  Seems like very good players enjoy the challenge of the back tees, but for the average 15 capper who likes NATURAL humps and bumps and firm and fast conditions, there's no comparison between the two.  I'd have to look at the GW list more closely but WS is clearly overrated.  For instance, WS 3 vs. Kingsley 19 is silly.

[Mac Plumart]

Hmmm....interesting take, Jud.  I am wondering if that is simply your personal assessment of the courses which may not be in-line with the golfing community as a whole.

True, Whistling Straits is ranked as the 3rd best modern course by Golfweek with Pacific Dunes #2; but there is a fairly significant point difference between the two. 

Golf Mag ranks WS #24 in America and PD #10.

Golf Digest ranks WS #22 and PD #14.

Taking into consideration the Modern vs. Classical lists of GW, they might have it pretty darn close to right...as all three ranks PD just a bit better...but it appears WS is no slouch.

Concerning GW being "silly" ranking WS ahead of Kingsley.  Perhaps, but Golf Mag and Golf Digest don't rank Kingsley in their Top 100 at all.  So, it appears GW might be way ahead of the curve.

Again, it might be that you prefer Kingsley to WS (and maybe many of the participants of this site)...but that doesn't seem to be the consensus opinion of the golfing community.
 

[George Pazin]

Hmmm....interesting take, Jud.  I am wondering if that is simply your personal assessment of the courses which may not be in-line with the golfing community as a whole.

You say this as if it were a bad thing...

Right or wrong, I think it's a good thing for our discussion group when folks have strong bold opinions like Jud's.

[Mark Smolens]

I've been to both, but to WS a far greater # of times (their spring specials used to make a visit in May too inexpensive not to go). I can get to Kohler in a couple of hour drive from Chicago, and Bandon not so easily -- and as a result WS remains on my play list. But any attempt to compare links golf in Bandon to WS is imo doomed to failure. There is simply something magical about the opportunity to play the ball on the ground, in the wind, and you cannot do that at the Straits. That doesn't make Straits a bad golf experience, and some may like it better (just as some find Jolie better looking than Aniston. . . yuck!).

[Mac Plumart]

George...nope, that is not what I meant.  And I agree discussion groups discuss. 

His statement that WS is clearly over-rated appears to be incorrect to me based on the information I presented in every way, except in relation to his own personal opinion.  That is the point I was trying to make.

[Dan Moore]

Isn't WS a better course to test the pros in a major thqan anything at Bandon or is there a course there that could do as good a job. 

[Jud_T]

Mac,
Have you played WS?  Putting aside the views, the tournaments and Kohler's marketing muscle, would you give it more than a Doak 7?

[Garland Bayley]

Mac,
Have you played WS?  Putting aside the views, the tournaments and Kohler's marketing muscle, would you give it more than a Doak 7?

Exactly what the discussion brought to my mind. We know Pac Dunes is a Doak 10. And I think we can safely say WS is not.
I can't assign Doak ratings (only Tom can do that), but I would think he would go with less than 9.

[Shane Wright]

I believe WS to be an 8.  I think the definition suits it well.  I also agree that Pacific Dunes is a 10.

The goals and objectives going into WS and Pdunes were completely different.  They are both great courses, but just simply aren't comparable. 

Put aside the dates these two courses were designed and built.  What if Doak would have been the arch. for the WS site and Dye for the PDunes site?  The courses would have come out completely different....and I don't believe they would have been ranked as highly combined as they are now. 

just my goofy thoughts....

[Bill Brightly]

Well, I for one am glad that Bandon and WS are in the same thread because living on the east coast, I meet lots of people who have played WS and love it, but they have never been to Bandon. I have never been to WS, so maybe I can have an intelligent response when these people ask me why they should journey to Oregon and not simply make the easier flight to WS.

From what I am reading, the Bandon courses certainly sound much more linksy.

[JC Urbina]

Richard,

I attended Pete's induction ceremony into the WGHF in Florida and at a private function I showed Pete some pictures of all the courses at Bandon,  especially Pacific Dunes. I invited him up to visit and see what were were building at Old Macdonald.  He browsed through the pictures and said
 " Jim really looks like some good land for golf"  Pete asked about the type of  grass we were using  and then said to me  "really looks good".

In fairness to Pete  he really can't compare the two by pictures alone.  I will tell you this,  he was staring at the pictures a lot longer then I would have thought.

[Steve Kline]

Bill - having been to both resorts it comes down to this for me. Both look great in pictures but Bandon PLAYS much better.

[Ron Farris]

Here is the deal:
Your are in purgatory and you are given a choice to play one course for the rest of time.
Whistling Straits - you are in heaven.
Pacific Dunes - you are in hell for the rest of time.

I would be playing in the fires of hell.

I played both courses, albeit a long time ago.

[Sean Leary]

Scott,

Whistling Straights is completely artificial and has several holes that are dubious from a gca point of view (5, 18).  Seems like very good players enjoy the challenge of the back tees, but for the average 15 capper who likes NATURAL humps and bumps and firm and fast conditions, there's no comparison between the two.  I'd have to look at the GW list more closely but WS is clearly overrated.  For instance, WS 3 vs. Kingsley 19 is silly.

I chuckle when I read how artificial WS feels, because I didn't feel that way at all. I was surprised how natural it looked, actually, as I have been all over GB and I playing real links courses. Does it play the same, no. But those dunes created are really well done. REALLY well done. For example, I think Chambers looks much more artificial than Whistling Straits.

Is it in the same league as Pac Dunes, to me, no. But it is in the same league as Bandon Dunes and Trails, at least to me.

[Tony Ristola]

Just an observation. In the last years it seems Pete Dye has been more outspoken publicly in a critical manner than ever about architecture, methods and courses. Jay Flemma's interview was interesting for example.

Those that know him a bit might be able to comment, but from reading his interviews etc. from years ago to what he's stated in recent years I see a bit of a departure.