16th at Pac Dunes

[Jim Jackson]

Gentlemen:
 
I just returned from a 4 day trip to Bandon, and was like most of us struck by the beauty and challenge of the complex.  Having read extensively and had the opportunity to play a few of America's best, I was particularly looking forward to PD,  Without question, I agree that it is a fantastic course, and certainly one whose strategic merit matches its high regard on this site and rankings nationally.
 
However, I must say that I had some experiences on 16 to discuss with the group.  I played twice, in 30+ winds and again in 10ish winds, both in the prevailing summer winds, and had no prayer of hitting that green in reg despite perfect tee shots both days (to Mr. Doak's "position A" for those that have the Pacific Dunes video).  Pins were middle right both days.  The first day, despite perfect lie and solid ballstriking all day, my caddie told me without equivocation "aim left of the green into the hollow and hope to 2 putt from there."  I proceeded to hit three balls, against his advice, two landing 20 feet left/short and taking the huge Bandon bounce into the back bunker.  Then a pitch and run landing just short and kicking directly right into the hollow.  Same experience on round two, for a total of 6 balls from 90 yards and in, none on the green.  I mean, I'm not be best player around, but as a 3.2 index, I'd expect to get on there at least a couple of times, assuming good shots.  The same things happened to the other <5 handicaps in my foursome.  Bogey won the hole both days - that back bunker shot is nearly impossible.
 
It seems to me that this hole stands alone as being particularly penal in a course that otherwise is fairly challenging but accomodating.  Are these experiences unique to me?  In terms of Mr. Doak's best short par 4s, and other quality short par 4s on PD alone (namely #6), what is the group's opinion as to where the 16th stacks up?  Did I play to unusally hard greens?  Simply strategic mistakes/poor shotmaking on my part?   

[David Sneddon]

I was out there in 2005, and my playing partner who'd been there several times before gave me sound advice for that hole:

5iron off the tee, out about 185 yds - there is a flat area there , then a full PW to the green.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

I lay back to more than 90 yards, because I am not good with an L wedge.  You've got to hit a full club in, and you've got to land it on the front ten feet of the green.  The only other ideas are either to do what your caddie suggested, or to play for the little "runaway truck ramp" between the bunkers at the back of the green.  [I've done that a couple of times, though it is a very narrow target.] 

There are days when even a perfect shot goes on through the back.  But not every day.

[Tom Jefferson]

As an option, there is always the play with the putter...........trickle the ball on.......trickle the ball into the middle of the green.

As mastered by the Great GR.....Grant Rogers.

Three solid weeks, night and day, of dry, summery wind here.............tawny colors, firm and fast.

Tom

[hhuffines]

Jim,

I played the hole 3 times while there in 2008 and came away thinking it was one of the best short 4s I had ever played.  Three perfect (for me) 3 woods into the fairway and three really good sand wedges.  Only on the 3rd try was I smart enough not to challenge the pin and landed my ball on the front.  Even with spin it rolled to the back where I two putted for par.  Cant't wait to try it again next spring along with Old Mac!

[Dan Herrmann]

Jim, even after travails on 16, that view to the west you get up past the green up toward 17 tee should make you forget your worries. 

[Tom Jefferson]

Dan;

Check your instant messages re: mattress fetish!

Thanks,
Tom

[Bill Brightly]

Jim,

I am a 3 hdcp and played it in May this year and felt it was one of hardest holes on the property. I went bogey (3 wood to the right swale, sand wedge a tad short) Double bogey (driver 40 yards short, flip wedge bounced into the back bunker...) (stifled whining) and finally on the 3rd round I laid back with 5 wood, then hit full pitching wedge that spun enough to hold and I lipped out an 8 foot birdie.

Clearly, you needed to play it a 3rd time!

Seriously, this is the one hole where I really missed the plush, parkland greens I am accustomed to and I went through the same thought process that you are going through. I finally came to the conclusion that it is links golf, and I needed to learn some new ways to approach greens, even forgetting where the pin was.

[Jim Jackson]

Thanks for the replies, fellas.
Coming from the thick South Texas bermuda (home of the flip wedge), there is absolutely no way to know what to expect your first times through the complex, and perhaps the most difficult approach (beside the bottle hole on Old Mac, geez) was that one.  I think that next time I'll just bang driver and hope to get a good left kick and chip or putt from there.  I love that this hole is, for me, one that occupies my attention from an early spot in the round.  The setting is undeniably fantastic.  And Dan is right, it's easy to forget a bogey plus when you stand on the next tee.

Tom, I never noticed the ramp, but will keep an eye out for it next time. 

JJ

[Rob Rigg]

Jim,

During the summer - Driver to the bank in front of the green and chip it on - works like a charm. During the winter - hit a long iron or something off the tee and hit a full "comfy" club in (the wind will help stop your ball).

For me, 16 is the weakest hole on a GREAT course - I have seen people tormented there to no end as it is overly penal and can play illogically in certain conditions. During the summer, it is probably not rare to see 3 out of 4 guys pick up after a snowman because they could not get on in two and either - played ping pong over and back a couple times - or got stuck in the back bunker and didn't play out to the side and go from there.

At least the 17th brings a smile back to your face.

[Michael Dugger]

No way Rigg.  Of course you are entitled to your opinion but no way that is the weakest hole on the course.

Merely BECAUSE it can cause such havoc implies it is a good hole, a dyabolical hole...etc.

Moreover, I've seen just as many train wrecks on #6 as I have on #16.  The same "over the green down by #2 green, chip short, ball rolls back to feet.  Chip again, over and down the other side.  Repeat."

Why does difficult...challenging....thought provoking...demanding...equate to "weak?"

If this was true every hole at Pine Valley would be weak...

[Ryan Farrow]

yea Rob, I wouln't call it weak by any means. If you want to call a hole bad becuase it is overly difficult, let talk 14? at Trails..... now that is a trainwreck of a golf hole, and to top it off, you take a bus ride up the hill!!!!

I don't understand all the fuss with 16. I liked it and didn't see anything that was unreasonable. If there is a weak hole at Pacific it would be #10, for me. If were going back to back par 3's I want 2 holes as good as 11... not sure how much the routing would have change or what holes would have been lost, but there has to be some much better par 3's waiting to be found then what is there at 10.  Perhaps its a better hole from down below. We played it high, and I was not a big fan.  Anyways, one of my very few complaints about the place.

[Rob Rigg]

Here comes the cavalry - like I said - "For me, 16 is the weakest hole on a GREAT course" - I have heard people state that 18, 3, 12, 10 Top, 15, etc. are weak holes as well - it is a great course and everyone is entitled to their opinion on what is - or if there is - a chink in the armor.

The best play during the summer at the 16th - again IMO - is driver/chip and in the winter iron and wedge - doesn't seem that complicated to me and I have not had trouble scoring on that hole when I execute my strategy. Seeing people not be able to hold the green when they execute a great shot, especially during the summer, is a flaw in my opinion. Even a lob wedge landing at the front of the green can go into the back bunker which is certain death, especially with a 30 mph side/tailwind. I don't think the hole was designed with driver and chip it up the hill as the optimal strategy (especially since a lot of people probably cannot drive it just short of the green). That is why I think it is the weakest hole on the course.

Michael - I know that every hole at PV does not look or play like the 16th at Pacific. By your logic - a lot of terrible holes (and I am not saying 16 at Pac is terrible by any means) is a good hole. Anyone can build a "hard" or "dyabolical" golf hole that causes havoc - it certainly does not make it good.

There is no comparison between 6 and 16 - IMO - as the margin for error is much larger off the tee at 6 and also into the green as from the right half of the fairway, and the right rough beyond, the putting surface is sufficiently deep to hold a decent approach or bump and run that is online - especially into a summer wind. The hole can be vexing with a big miss (I have never seen anyone go down to #2 green but I can see how that may happen) but I have probably seen as many birdies as bogeys there - and almost a couple of eagles. I think it is a very cool short par four and a nice lead in to the 7th which is a wonderful long par four.

I think the 12th at Ballyneal is a more fun "version" of the 16th - it is a really solid hole that can give you a big hug or kick your ass.

Ryan - Trails is another course I love but I agree with you on the 14th - a difficult and weak hole - fortunately it is followed by 15 which is fantastic.

I also think the combo of 9 lower (crazy fun drive and downhill approach or chip) and 10 lower (tough long iron into the wind during the summer and a nice complement to 11) is much better than 9 upper and 10 upper.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tom - how's Grant doing?  He once told me a great story about Bobby Riggs at Salishan.

While not for the faint of heart a rather fun option for PD #16 is to hit it over the trees directly at the pin.  You'll clear the gorse and end up in the rough 10-15 feet below the hole and 30-40 yards short.  You could get screwed but you may also have a flip to most any parts of the green.

Tom D - was your runaway truck ramp a conscience design feature?  We have always remarked it is a rather odd component to a green complex.

JC

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:

I did think about that ramp in the back of the green when we were building the hole.  It was more or less there ... a natural saddle between the lows on either side ... but I decided to grass it so that you could chip back from it easily, knowing that downwind it would be very tough to hold the green.  I might not ever have noticed it as a possible play if I hadn't built the hole.

[Bill_McBride]

The definitely best way to play this hole is how Tiger Bernhardt played it one of our rounds in 2001.

Driver to the back of the green, two putt birdie.  No problem!   

[Tim Pitner]

Crazy talk . . . #16 is not a weak hole, relative to the other PD holes or otherwise . . . options abound.  (I tend to play conservatively, to the outside of the dogleg and then a full shot in). 

PD #3 a weak hole?  No way.  BT #14 a weak hole?  I couldn't disagree more.  It might be the best hole on the course.

[Ryan Farrow]

Tim,


Please give me 1 reason why this is a good hole? Even if you play a perfect tee shot, the green is absolutely absurd and you have almost no chance of keeping it on the green with your approach shot. I would bet the average score on that hole daily is over an 8. counting pick ups as a 10. If the green was somewhat reasonable, it could be a good hole. IMO they just need to turn into a semi  punchbowl.

And this is all after they made it "easier". Its all really strange considering how good the rest of the course is.

 

And can someone please tell me why do you have to take a bus from 13 green to 14 tee? Why the free pass? If this was another architect, this place would be up in arms.


Sorry for the rant but just wanted to high jack the thread in defense of 16 at Pacific.

[Tim Pitner]

Ryan,

(I assume you're talking about BT #14)--Because on a course that is generally very generous off the tee, you have to hit a tee shot with little margin of error.  If you fail to place your tee shot correctly, you will have a recovery shot (unlike, say, a hole lined with water or deep rough), but par may no longer be a reasonable goal, other than via a long putt.  On your recovery shot, you almost certainly will have to play away from the hole and you may be better off playing away from the green (to the fairway in front of the green, for example).  How many other drivable par 4s are like this?  It's unique and, like #17 at Sawgrass, it's a hole that has your attention throughout the round (but unlike #17, it's not do or die).  

I can see how big numbers are made here, but I think it's because people don't give it enough respect.  I'm not a particularly strong player and I've parred it and never made worse than bogey.  I've seen the green driven and an eagle made.  You wouldn't want 18 holes like BT #14, but one hole is fine.  

I played the hole before it was softened and before they made you take a cart--it used to be optional.  That issue has been discussed here--I believe someone had a health issue there and the cart is now mandatory for liability reasons.  

[Tim Bert]

Tim,


Please give me 1 reason why this is a good hole? Even if you play a perfect tee shot, the green is absolutely absurd and you have almost no chance of keeping it on the green with your approach shot. I would bet the average score on that hole daily is over an 8. counting pick ups as a 10. If the green was somewhat reasonable, it could be a good hole. IMO they just need to turn into a semi  punchbowl.

And this is all after they made it "easier". Its all really strange considering how good the rest of the course is.

 

And can someone please tell me why do you have to take a bus from 13 green to 14 tee? Why the free pass? If this was another architect, this place would be up in arms.


Sorry for the rant but just wanted to high jack the thread in defense of 16 at Pacific.

Personal experience of a small sample size is usually not a very good indicator, and this situation is no different.  Still, I feel compelled to mention that on a course that has absolutely obliterated me, I have fared pretty well on #14.  I have never broken 90 on the course in four tries.  My best score was 90 as a 12 handicap.  My worst score was right around 100 as a 10 handicap.

On #14, I have hit the GIR two out of four times and one of the two time I missed was completely my fault - not the fault of a tricked up hole.  I have made par, par, triple bogey, birdie in four tries.  Before you focus on the triple bogey, I have blown up in every way known to man on every hole at the entire resort.  There aren't many holes out there where I can point to 3 out of 4 rounds with a par or better score.

I think the hole is in the head's of many of the better players that experience the resort.  It's also in the head's of people that think they deserve a chance at a traditional par with a fairway and GIR.  I am the world's worst when it comes to weak mental psyche on a golf course.  This particular hole just isn't in my head.  When played smartley and safely I think everyone has a shot at par there (it just might not be with a GIR) and it can be a very easy bogey as long as you aren't asking for too much.

#16 at PD on the other hand... now that one is in my head and has played the round wrecker on numerous occasions.  A round at Pacific Dunes doesn't go by when I am not thinking about #16 and #18 and what I've got to do there very early in the round.  It's my own personal version of TPC at Sawgrass #17.

[Tom Jefferson]

Jonathon;

Grant is doing great!  Full of life, high spirited, just plain really well!  He is feeling particularly good 'cause last week he and Ken Nice FINALLY beat Eric J and me in Foresomes at OM. 

Took 'em three (!) years!

He carries two putters, one to putt with, and one to play with from up to 200 yards, with a loft of what looks like about 4 degrees.
He is building an entirely new aspect of his golf game.....master of long putting!

Tom

[Ryan Farrow]

Ryan,

(I assume you're talking about BT #14)--Because on a course that is generally very generous off the tee, you have to hit a tee shot with little margin of error.  If you fail to place your tee shot correctly, you will have a recovery shot (unlike, say, a hole lined with water or deep rough), but par may no longer be a reasonable goal, other than via a long putt.  On your recovery shot, you almost certainly will have to play away from the hole and you may be better off playing away from the green (to the fairway in front of the green, for example).  How many other holes are like this?  It's unique and, like #17 at Sawgrass, it's a hole that has your attention throughout the round (but unlike #17, it's not do or die). 

I can see how big numbers are made here, but I think it's because people don't give it enough respect.  I'm not a particularly strong player and I've parred it and never made worse than bogey.  I've seen the green driven and an eagle made.  You wouldn't want 18 holes like BT #14, but one hole is fine. 

I played the hole before it was softened and before they made you take a cart--it used to be optional.  That issue has been discussed here--I believe someone had a health issue there and the cart is now mandatory for liability reasons. 

I get what your saying, but perhaps only the front portion of the green accepts a good approach shot from a good drive. Any Pin beyond the front is borderline impossible. I really don't mind the tee shot at all, but to me the problem with the hole is the green. And lets not kid ourselves, this is not #10 at riviera.  You can play smart there and at worst end up with a bogey. 14 at trails you can play smart and still take an X. There is just too much big trouble all around that tiny green for a hole where I'm sure 80-90% of people end up right.

But hey, a D6 can take care of that green in a day. I bet if one of the caddies could operate a dozer or that thing would be gone in no time.

[Richard Choi]

I have yet to par this hole on my 8 or so attempts there (with several X's), but put me down for the LOVE crowd.

I really love the fact that such a short, benign looking hole can wreck such a havoc. There are options abound, even if none have them are easy. It is a hole that plays with your mind several holes before you get there.

I don't know if I can handle 18 holes like this one, but one on a course like Pac Dunes is a bliss.

[Eric Smith]

#16 at PD on the other hand... now that one is in my head and has played the round wrecker on numerous occasions.  A round at Pacific Dunes doesn't go by when I am not thinking about #16 and #18 and what I've got to do there very early in the round.  It's my own personal version of TPC at Sawgrass #17.

Tiiimmmmmmm Beerrrrrrrtttttttt! 

I've been giddy with anticipation for the Bandon trip next spring, knowing that my maiden voyage around the great Pacific Dunes will be in the company of the original Tribute Thread author ...now you've gone and put me in defense mode in regards to the 16th hole!  Going to go look for that thread to learn a bit more about this second shot and green. 

[Bill Brightly]

yea Rob, I wouln't call it weak by any means. If you want to call a hole bad becuase it is overly difficult, let talk 14? at Trails..... now that is a trainwreck of a golf hole, and to top it off, you take a bus ride up the hill!!!!

Ryan,

When I played BT 14 with Ran, he said that Bill Coore needed a way to get over the ridge to build hole 15 and 16 (two great holes) and thus the walk up the hill to the 14th tee. Whether or not you like Hole 14, I think it is an interesting discussion of the type of routing problems that architects face once they "find" great holes on a property.


Hole 14 with a glimpse of Hole 15 tee