Ethics questions for fellow golf architects and general public!

[Randy Thompson]

I just recieved a copy of a bulk e-mailing letter to most clubs in Chile. The letter was from a design firm out of Mexico and a former design associate of Jack Nicklaus. They were promoting redesign packages. A complete set of redesign master plan with construction drawing for all areas and two visits during the actual redesign process for X dollars. It would be very hard for this company to take away any actual future business of mine but what is bothering me is that they have stated the price for whcih future clientele of mine could use to there advantage as a negotiating tool to lower my fees. As a result, this hits me as unethical on their part. Do I have a right to feel accordingly or is all fair in love, war and business. If you were in my position would you send the firm a letter stating my dicontent in what I consider to be an act of unprofessionalism on their part.

[Marty Bonnar]

Randy,
ethics
business
no relation
the wisest man here once said golf like life is inherently unfair.
never a truer word was ere spake.
good luck,
FBD.

[Joel_Stewart]

People get what they pay for.  "A complete set of redesign master plan and two site visits" might be half ass and incomplete.  I think you need to sell quality (yourself) and more than two site visits.

How much less would be then your services, 25%, 50%?

[Randy Thompson]

Joel,
Thats why I donīt think they can compete because I am here and offer a much more complete package and much more hands on, whcih I feel you need even more so in a redesign than a new design. It not a matter of me needing a future strategy of how to deal with the situation, my question is this ethical and acceptable. In relation to their pricing in comparrison to mine, i would rather not comment. If they find out my fees are in the neighborhood to the price they stated for example, than they could do a new mailing offering 30% less, where does it stop! Maybe I should just shake it off but I still think it is unprofessional and something I would never consider doing!

[Garland Bayley]

My, it would be nice if our competition didn't try to offer better deals on comparable software. But, we have to stay in touch with customers, make sure they know what they are getting from us, and convince them it is a better value.

Why should your business be any different?

[Randy Thompson]

Garland,
Several very valid point! I just found it a little strange and our business is a little different but that doesnīt mean it will always be that way. I will be surprized if other archtiects have been confronted with such.

[Dan Herrmann]

Randy,
I'm not a fatalist, but it does seem that fate often pays back the unethical eventually.  Hang in there, my friend.

[Ian Andrew]

Randy,

One of the local architects here did a mass email to all the higher end private clubs in the country looking for projects. I see it as sign of the times. In theory he's not supposed to do that, but the reality is many people are desperate to turn their fortunes. I don't begrudge people doing that.

That said, I do understand your frustration with his quoting fees.

[Randy Thompson]

Ian,
Mass e-mailings are a sign of the times and I find that completly acceptable but the times must be getting tougher by quoting prices. Desperate actions for desperate times!

[Bill_McBride]

Welcome to hard times, hang in there!

I have always thought the best sales and marketing plans begin with the care and feeding (and currying) of existing clients, but that becomes more critical yet during hard times.

[Joel_Stewart]

Randy and Ian:

I was told the story a few years ago that when Peninsula Country Club in California hired Donald Ross he also attempted to get other work out here by mailing and making personal visits and pleas.  Since this was during the depression he was unable to get any other work thus Peninsula is the only Donald Ross course in California.  Peninsula CC opened in 1920.

The point is architects have been trying to drum up business since the begining.

[JWL]

Randy
I am having a hard time putting a name to a former Nicklaus design associate now in Mexico.
I think I might know who this might be, but if I am right, this person has never been a Nicklaus associate.
If you want to email me, I will give you my thoughts on this.    Not being, but claiming to be, would be unethical.   

[Tom_Doak]

Randy:

Welcome to the new millennium.  It's brutal out there, and not at all surprising that some guys will find a way to justify any action in order to put bread on the table.  Price deflation is likely to be a part of it, too.  

But, don't give up your ethics just because some others do.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Please help me understand.

The spam seems to me to be the most unethical part of this incident - as it pertains to you - JWL and Nicklaus is another story.
Are you referring to the ASGCA's ethics about existing clients.

I think it is nuts to send a price before there is a project, but what business doesn't advertise sales?
They must be trying to sell the Nicklaus brand, so the club's website can say it was improved by a former Nicklaus Associate - or Nicklaus himself.  (I wonder how many courses will wind up being "designed" by Nicklaus.)

This is another good reason for a club to not use an architect.
I wish the customer was better educated.

[Mike_Young]

Randy,
GCA is a self annointed business....
We all see that type of stuff in some form....and if you are doing work there will always be someone after your butt...
We had one guy tell a rework project in the area he was the only one that was ASGCA certified to do such work....
It is a new world..and that new world includes about 75% less business for golf architects than before....if someone is just starting such a campaign as you mention he will have  a hard time....I am sure you are aware of how many people out there claim to have worked for specific architects in order to gain acceptance yet you later find as JWL mentioned that they really had nothing to do with the actual design of that firm...or you may find a person that has worked for a specific architect and later find that all he really did was sell for him....you know how it goes....

BUT what you must remember is that the business of golf course design is a "self annointed" business and thus any one and everyone that wishes to be a golf architect can have a go at it....just like the art world....the real key is having your name on the actual scorecard....for amusement sometime you should do a database of the actual ASGCA members who have never worked for themselves or who have never had their own name on a scorecard....or who now work for themselves but none of their listed courses are courses with their name on them...and maybe they have still never gotten an 18 hole project of their own....you would be surprised....AND can you imagine how many of the firms that trained these guys and let them go are now slamming them.   

Ethics is not GCA specific...bad ethics is a character flaw....

Just get your name on the scorecard.....good courses are your best tool....IMHO

[Randy Thompson]

Mike,
i have recieved spams from another firm in Mexico because my email has the word golf in it. I have no problem with spams but quoting low prices in writting in those spams or general emailing just doesnīt sit well with me. The only area in South America this might be effective is in Brazil, where there are a lot more uneducated clients that are interested in selling real estate with a view of anything that can be labled golf. Most of the rest of the world down here are better educated and realize it takes much more than a set of plans to create memorable golf experiences. Adveretizing in our business seems to me to be a waste of time at least that is my conclusions for South America. Its a smaller golfing world and the word of mouth is the best marketing assets along with past works that sell you by themself. In my opinion, a web site for a golf course archtiect is an indirect tool that a potential future clientele may enter to further evaluate your company before making actual contact. Just hard for me to imagine a serious developer or anyone considering a serious golf project, surfing the web looking for a golf archtiect. I have considered and am still considering doing something with the golf channel Latin America not so much to obtain new clientele but to increase the market perception in relation to prestige and increaing prestige could lead to increasing feeīs. But if I do, I sure wonīt be mentioning pricing! Conclusions, to each his own, I guess its no big deal what they did and will have very little effect.

[Steve Okula]

Randy,

Are there that many clubs in Chile that it would qualify as a "bulk" mailing?

I also have an idea about who this might be. J.A.P.?

I would be intersted to see the e-mail. If it's convenient, please forward to steveokula@hotmail.com

[Randy Thompson]

Mike Young,
Good to hear from you, I was getting worried about you and Jeff B, neither one of you have been around much lately. I hear where your coming from though on the post and agree with everything you stated. Past getting the name on the scorecard, trying now to concentrate getting my fees up where I feel they deserve to be, so that when the downturns come again in the future I will be better situated to out ride them, which we all seem to be learning is the key. These types of mailings that I saw today will make it more challenging, nothing more!

[Jim Nugent]

I do not think it's unethical to send out a marketing piece to prospective customers.  It's also not unethical to list your prices.  If the competition cannot meet your price, and that matters to the customer, then they may have to explain why they are worth more money. 

[Mark Pearce]

This seems like a question of welcome to the real world.  Actually, I have an issue with Spam, though it may be too late to close that stable door.  But quoting prices?  I really can't see how on earth that can be unethical.  That's how most businesses have been for years.

[Michael Whitaker]

Marketing guru Seth Godin offers the following simple five step plan for just about everyone and everything:

1. Go, make something happen.
2. Do work you're proud of.
3. Treat people with respect.
4. Make big promises and keep them.
5. Ship it out the door.

When in doubt, see #1.

You might find Godin's blog interesting and helpful: http://sethgodin.typepad.com/

This quote from the blog seems appropriate here:  The thing is, if you promise very little, you don't get a chance to deliver because I'll ignore you. And if you promise too much, you don't get a chance to deliver, because I won't believe you...

Hence the paradox. The more you promise, the less likely you are to achieve delight and the less likely you are to earn the trust to get the gig in the first place.

[Sean_A]

I sure don't follow why it isn't ethical to quote jobs in advance or even trying to nick customers.  It is the customer afterall who decides where his business will go, all this chap seems to be doing is asking potential clients to look closely at the service they are receiving and the cost of that service.  I see no issue with this in the least.

Ciao 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Randy,

50-100 years ago, the design professions sought to protect themselves from competition and pricing (including the forming of ASGCA, AIA and others)  Those protections are long sense diminished and competing on price, advertising, etc. are all now common.  As noted, it took a while, but the design professions are now firmly rooted in the real world, and not considered any different because of a few exhalted "master builders".

[Mike_Young]

Randy,

50-100 years ago, the design professions sought to protect themselves from competition and pricing (including the forming of ASGCA, AIA and others)  Those protections are long sense diminished and competing on price, advertising, etc. are all now common.  As noted, it took a while, but the design professions are now firmly rooted in the real world, and not considered any different because of a few exhalted "master builders".

"Master builders"??   Is that acquired in the same way as the guy that works of the sport fishing boat for years baiting the hooks?  After a few years he is considered a " Master Baiter"

[Brian Phillips]

Mike,

There is a very famous design company that has a "Master" architect....whatever that is.