Jim Engh and difficult mountain sites

[Tommy Williamsen]

I remember reading a post by Tom Doak who said something to the affect, that he looked at the site of a second 18 at Black Rock and decided not to bid on the project because the land did not suit his style of architecture. It got me thinking that Jim Engh may build more courses on difficult mountain sites than anyone.  I think of Black Rock, Sanctuary, and Lakota Canyon.  There are other courses that are built on mountainous land but it seems that Engh takes on more of them.

[Adam Clayman]

Stanley Tompson(sp?), Dick Phelps, Ken Dye  and Baxter Spann come to mind. Maybe not in the same volume as Jim. I'm trying to remember who did the original Glacier club? Might have been Jones?

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

When one does an especially hilly site you will likely have to make major adjustments -- some of them can work well and others will not. I salute Jim Engh because he made his mark with such sites. Mountainous sites present a range of obstacles and getting quality golf built in such locales is never e-z. A number of layouts that Engh has done have worked out very well -- you mentioned a few of them.

[DMoriarty]

I think the second Black Rock course is Weiskopf, not Engh.  I believe Weiskopf has done a number of courses on extremely difficult sites, including Yellowstone Club and Spanish Peaks.   As for Black Rock's first course, I get the impression that much of the site difficulty was self-imposed  by Engh and/or the developer with their decision to detour down over the ridge and through the rocks. 

It is a matter of priorities.   If a designer is more interested in spectacular views and drops than walkability and continuity, and if a designer doesn't mind moving mountains to shoehorn golf holes into supposedly spectacular settings, then supposedly difficult sites present more of an opportunity than a challenge.

The trick is to make an excellent golf course, not just good course for a mountain course.  In that regard regard Rock Creek succeeds were others have fallen short.

[Ben Sims]

The trick is to make an excellent golf course, not just good course for a mountain course. 

Holy crap, the best--and most succinct--sentence on disjointed mountain goat golf I've ever heard.

Then again, I played Farm Links at Pursell Farms with some high school buddies a few weeks ago and to a man, they're favorite hole was the 120 foot, 120 yard, drop shot par 3 that had 9(!!) switchbacks in the cart path to get up to the tee.   They said I was a snob for hating it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Weiskopf did design the second courrse at Black Rock.  I agree that TW has done some mountainous sites.  I played Catamount Ranch outside Steamboat Springs this summer.  He used some pretty severe land. 

[Garland Bayley]

The trick is to make an excellent golf course, not just good course for a mountain course. 

Holy crap, the best--and most succinct--sentence on disjointed mountain goat golf I've ever heard.

Then again, I played Farm Links at Pursell Farms with some high school buddies a few weeks ago and to a man, they're favorite hole was the 120 foot, 120 yard, drop shot par 3 that had 9(!!) switchbacks in the cart path to get up to the tee.   They said I was a snob for hating it.

So Zoomie Dell,

Do you have any reason for hating it other than it is out of favor with members of this website?

[Tim Pitner]

I'm trying to remember who did the original Glacier club?

Wasn't it Art Hills?

[Greg Chambers]

The trick is to make an excellent golf course, not just good course for a mountain course. 

Holy crap, the best--and most succinct--sentence on disjointed mountain goat golf I've ever heard.

Then again, I played Farm Links at Pursell Farms with some high school buddies a few weeks ago and to a man, they're favorite hole was the 120 foot, 120 yard, drop shot par 3 that had 9(!!) switchbacks in the cart path to get up to the tee.   They said I was a snob for hating it.

That particular cart path with 9 switchbacks or whatever it is was purposely set up that way so that Club Car could do field testing there.  The place is a living laboratory for golf industry equipment companies, chemical companies, grass seed companies, etc.  Beyond just the design of the course, it really is a cool idea.  And the food in the lodge is unbelievable.

[DMoriarty]

The trick is to make an excellent golf course, not just good course for a mountain course.  

Then again, I played Farm Links at Pursell Farms with some high school buddies a few weeks ago and to a man, they're favorite hole was the 120 foot, 120 yard, drop shot par 3 that had 9(!!) switchbacks in the cart path to get up to the tee.   They said I was a snob for hating it.

My guess is that by far the favorite holes at Black Rock are those shoehorned in among the rocks -- the ones with the drops and the views.  These are the ones that supposedly made the site so "difficult."   There is obviously a large segment of golfers who are blown away by that sort of thing.

I do find it odd that we give extra credit for guys who build courses in these crazy places, when they have built their reputations on the spectacular and seem to go out of their way to get into these crazy places.  

[Ben Sims]

The trick is to make an excellent golf course, not just good course for a mountain course. 

Holy crap, the best--and most succinct--sentence on disjointed mountain goat golf I've ever heard.

Then again, I played Farm Links at Pursell Farms with some high school buddies a few weeks ago and to a man, they're favorite hole was the 120 foot, 120 yard, drop shot par 3 that had 9(!!) switchbacks in the cart path to get up to the tee.   They said I was a snob for hating it.

So Zoomie Dell,

Do you have any reason for hating it other than it is out of favor with members of this website?

Gar-B,

Why thank you for asking.  Yes I do.  While I found the large ridge seperating the front of the green from the back to be one of the more solid greens on the course, I wasn't exactly enamored with the hole itself.  And gosh darn-it, GCA.com didn't even enter my mind as my immediate thought on the tee was...uuuggghhh.  Actually, what entered my mind was this, "So they sacrificed ease of maintenance and routing flow for this frying pan-upside-the-head of a golf hole?"

My second thought was, "Hurdzan and Fry can do better than this."

The worst part though, is that 3, 4, and 6 were very good golf holes.  And they stuck a novelty hole in there. 

That particular cart path with 9 switchbacks or whatever it is was purposely set up that way so that Club Car could do field testing there.  The place is a living laboratory for golf industry equipment companies, chemical companies, grass seed companies, etc.  Beyond just the design of the course, it really is a cool idea.  And the food in the lodge is unbelievable.

Greg,

I was aware of the labratory aspect of the facility.  In fact, I would go so far as to say it's as good as Longshadow over in Madison, GA.  For $100 I got 36 holes of golf and a fine lunch.  I saw a VERY solid set of par 4's and a bunch of different turfgrasses.  Zorro being the coolest cultivar of them all!  What I didn't get was a walk through cool terrain, a lesson in how to route a golf course, or very memorable or interesting set of par 3's. 

That said, it's a neat trip and one I reccomend unless you've got a game at Shoal Creek or Capstone.
 

[Garland Bayley]

...Actually, what entered my mind was this, "So they sacrificed ease of maintenance and routing flow for this frying pan-upside-the-head of a golf hole?"

My second thought was, "Hurdzan and Fry can do better than this."
...

So you give your best ratings to holes that have ease of maintenance? Come on now! Best green on the course, and you hated the hole because it wasn't easy to maintain? Are you a golfer or a super?

[Ben Sims]

...Actually, what entered my mind was this, "So they sacrificed ease of maintenance and routing flow for this frying pan-upside-the-head of a golf hole?"

My second thought was, "Hurdzan and Fry can do better than this."
...

So you give your best ratings to holes that have ease of maintenance? Come on now! Best green on the course, and you hated the hole because it wasn't easy to maintain? Are you a golfer or a super?

You know Garland, after a 10 sortie week, I am suddenly very clear headed and realize that I don't owe you a single explanation of why I didn't like the hole.  Other than the fact that it has zero walkability, isn't a terribly strategic hole (i.e, hit it and hope), is extremely unnatural in aesthetic, and serves no purpose other than to provide a manufactured view and is a test ground for golf carts, it was wonderful hole.  

And as someone who wishes to educate and enter the golf argronomy/construction world one day, maintainability enters my mind.  

I hope my explanation is satisfactory this go around.  If not, I don't care.  Go inflate your post count and bother someone else.    

--EDIT-- 

P.S:  "One of the more solid" isn't exactly a glowing statement as "best" green on the course.  It meant top third, or, one of the more solid greens on the course.

[Garland Bayley]

...Actually, what entered my mind was this, "So they sacrificed ease of maintenance and routing flow for this frying pan-upside-the-head of a golf hole?"

My second thought was, "Hurdzan and Fry can do better than this."
...

So you give your best ratings to holes that have ease of maintenance? Come on now! Best green on the course, and you hated the hole because it wasn't easy to maintain? Are you a golfer or a super?

You know Garland, after a 10 sortie week, I am suddenly very clear headed and realize that I don't owe you a single explanation of why I didn't like the hole.  Other than the fact that it has zero walkability, isn't a terribly strategic hole (i.e, hit it and hope), is extremely unnatural in aesthetic, and serves no purpose other than to provide a manufactured view and is a test ground for golf carts, it was wonderful hole.  

And as someone who wishes to educate and enter the golf argronomy/construction world one day, maintainability enters my mind.  

I hope my explanation is satisfactory this go around.  If not, I don't care.  Go inflate your post count and bother someone else.    

--EDIT-- 

P.S:  "One of the more solid" isn't exactly a glowing statement as "best" green on the course.  It meant top third, or, one of the more solid greens on the course.

I'll take that as an it's fashionable on this website to dislike such holes.

PS. You write disparaging things about your golf game. So how isn't every other hole "hit it and hope"?

[Ben Sims]

I'll take that as an it's fashionable on this website to dislike such holes.

PS. You write disparaging things about your golf game. So how isn't every other hole "hit it and hope"?

You cracked the code Garland.  Toe the party line.  Lot's of officers out there jocking to work on golf courses, let me tell you.  

It's not always hit and hope.  I would say my golf game is somewhere between Wyatt Halliday's and yours.

Please dazzle me with your next predictable nugget of feigning disdain.  

[Tom_Doak]

Has anyone played the Weiskopf course at Black Rock?  Did they even finish it?  I have not heard one thing about it ... but I am curious to know what he managed to do there, and if I was wrong not to take the job.  It looked like there would have to be 2-3 holes that would just be impossibly steep and would ruin any chance of it being a really good course.

[Brian Ross]

From what I found, it looks like like they were almost finished building it, but lack of home sales and the down economy led to a foreclosure on the new development (including the Weiskopf course).  From the article I found, it appears, though, that it was bought by a company in May, but it doesn't detail whether they are going forward with anything yet. 

http://www.cdapress.com/news/business/article_95f4e07c-a6a2-5310-96e2-d11c09a43bcd.html

[Andy Troeger]

Some have mentioned, and I would tend to agree, that Engh's design style fits better on mountainous terrain. I can't think of any of his courses where features were really intended to look natural anyway and most of them aren't designed with walkers in mind. Obviously they aren't for everybody, but I think he does a fine job at building the type of course he is trying to build. Even The Creek Club at Reynolds Plantation is on fairly severe terrain, in addition to the mountain layouts in the West.

I actually was extremely impressed with Ravenna outside Denver, which I played earlier this month. It is built right up against the foothills and is easily the best Jay Morrish course I have played. It actually even snuck in ahead of Forest Highlands' Canyon Course that he did with Weiskopf. I'd put Ravenna ahead of Sanctuary in the immediate area, but just behind Castle Pines.

[DMoriarty]

Has anyone played the Weiskopf course at Black Rock?  Did they even finish it?  I have not heard one thing about it ... but I am curious to know what he managed to do there, and if I was wrong not to take the job.  It looked like there would have to be 2-3 holes that would just be impossibly steep and would ruin any chance of it being a really good course.

That side of the development went belly up, with the course almost finished.   Mr. Foley bought it, or I should say his company did.   Not sure what has happened since. 

[Garland Bayley]

...Please dazzle me with your next predictable nugget of feigning disdain.  

Tell me about this feigning disdain. Would the above be an example?

I asked you why you hated a hole. You gave me little about playing golf and hitting golf shots other than the ambiguous "hit it and hope". When you resort to defensive and nebulous statements, I have to conlude you have no substance to your conclusion. I am sorry if you feel put upon by my questions and conclusion, but this is a discussion group, although many treat it as a frat party.

[Garland Bayley]

Ben,

My apologies for reading your post wrong. I assumed the drop shot par 3 had 9 switch backs tee to green. On review, I see it had 9 switch backs to get to the tee. Now I understand the routing comment. Sorry, I didn't read this one careful enough to begin with.