[Tim Bert]

     
The Open at Prestwick in 1870 was won with a score of 149 by Young Tommy Morris age 19
Tommy Morris first Hole of the First Round was a 3 for the long Par 5 578 yards hole

I have re-read Mr. Morrow's initial quote, and you guys are missing the point of this thread entirely.  Since the meticulous records would've surely indicated that he holed out for an eagle, we're left with the assumption that Tommy reached a 578 yard green in two. In 1870? It is clear to me that Tommy was on the juice. The evidence is incontrovertible. I wonder what they called it back then?

Sincerely,

Floyd Landis

P.S.  Tim, page 2 of a thread is WAY too early for Godwin's Law to be invoked.   

Bunky, bunk could have used his detective skills to deduce that the third shot was likely holed from some distance and therefore the green was NOT reached in two.  Still I have plenty of trouble reaching holes of that length in three shots, so I wish I had some of that 1800s technology on my side.

I was only hoping for the Law to be invoked to bring about an early demise to the thread but we are all taking care of that with the numerous tangent ensuring that no useful discussion takes place here!

Tim,
I am disappointed you, and apparantly some others here, are so terrified about learning a little history. Especially if it doesn't fit within the old wives tales you think you know. Young Tom did some amazing things during his short career. There is a reason some people think he is a serious contender for the greatest player ever.

But you don't want to hear or know about that.

Hi Ralph

I am sorry if I disappointed you. If this thread had any golf history content beyond post #1 then I might have been less "terrified" of history - whatever that means. This thread was derailed no later than post number 2 or 3 and it hasn't been about golf history since post 1 when Melvyn made the unfortunate mistake of mixing war into the topic,which undid the thread to begin with.  I didn't jump in until long after any remnants of the original post were being discussed. My comments about the demise of the thread have nothing to do with the historical content.

If by chance you meant the history of Adam Sandler movies or perhaps the history of wars or maybe one man's version of the history of the Obama presidency, then I am sorry I misunderstood the tone of your post.

The fact that you and I are now trading blows is yet one more example of the problems with this thread which hasn't had anything to do with golf for some time now. Thanks for singling me out!

Tim,
I wasn't singling you out but simply following up on your previous post.
I am sorry I wasn't more clear, the posts following the original post seem to be a diversion from some statements of historical facts that could have lead to an interesting thread. To me it appeared to be history-phobia. Especially after having read a number of past responses to Melvin threads.
I have a folder on my computer devoted to downloads of images and screen captures of text that Melvin has posted. There are a few non- Melvin things in there but not many. I know who definitely hasn't posted anything potential useful for my purposes. And before you snark on that last line, yes I realize posting something useful to me is not a goal you need or want to aspire to.

Ralph, I really don't understand how anything I've said on this thread could lead you to believe I have history-phobia or that I am terrified of golf history.  Thats just a bizarre comment. I completely appreciate that you had a personal interest in some of the content of Melvyn's original post.  There was some interesting stuff in there but there was no discussion of that content going on in this thread that I could see.  The first page of this thread quickly became a disaster long before I stepped in. I don't see how you could possibly read all of those posts and not agree if your genuine interest is golf history.   
 
  I made a terrible mistake by getting involved in this discussion in the first place. I admit that.  I am sorry that i offended you enough that you felt the need to take one last passive aggressive dig at me with your closing comment.    Of course I'd love to post something that would be useful to you or any other participant here.  Please accept my apology and assurance that my involvement had nothing to do with a phobia of history.  Chalk it up to bad judgment on my part.

[Tim_Cronin]

Prestwick, 1869

Young Tom Morris

Recorded Score for the 3 Rounds (12 holes per Round)

1st   6; 4; 4; 6; 5; 5; 3; 1; 6; 3; 3; 4 = 50
2nd  6; 4; 4; 7; 5; 4; 3; 4; 6; 4; 4; 4 = 55
3rd   5; 5; 5; 5; 4; 5; 3; 3; 5; 5; 3; 4 = 52

Do we have a record of what bogey was for each hole at Prestwick in 1869? It's clear Young Tom was the class of the field, but did he also outclass the course?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tim yes he outclassed the course too, he was about 4 shots better than anyone per round on average. Young Tom was passed his best by 23 though, he hecame a heavy drinker and started losing matches.

When he started with a 3 at Prestwick he holed a wood from about 180 yards for his third shot, the first at Prestwick..roughy from the car park to the current 16th green was a par 6, so if you talk about par it was actually an albatross. In the old days there were many par 6 holes, par 5s were often 360 yards plus and a par 4 might be 210 yards. 200 yards was a real big drive back then.

[Mark Pearce]

However, if you read the first post thoroughly, you will notice that it is plainly directed at me in an "up yours" tone.

Wow.  I'd get help for that paranoia, if I were you.  The reference to war in the first thread was stupid and doomed the thread from the word go.  But aimed at you?  Personally?  I don't think so.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Melvyn

Does the naming of the Strath Bunker have anything to do with David Strath? 

[PCCraig]

Ralph:

Young Tom the greatest golfer ever? Please you can't be serious.

If this were a historical golf "draft" I would take Babe Zaharias before Young Tom.

[Bill_McBride]

Ralph:

Young Tom the greatest golfer ever? Please you can't be serious.

If this were a historical golf "draft" I would take Babe Zaharias before Young Tom.

He was by far the most dominant player ever, four straight Opens and then died.  Read "Tommy's Honor," very good book.

[PCCraig]

Ralph:

Young Tom the greatest golfer ever? Please you can't be serious.

If this were a historical golf "draft" I would take Babe Zaharias before Young Tom.

He was by far the most dominant player ever, four straight Opens and then died.  Read "Tommy's Honor," very good book.

Dominant over whom?

[JR Potts]

I apologize for my part in this thread.  I took the bait on Melvin's comment and for that I repent.

Carry on.

[Mike Demetriou]

Tim yes he outclassed the course too, he was about 4 shots better than anyone per round on average. Young Tom was passed his best by 23 though, he hecame a heavy drinker and started losing matches.

When he started with a 3 at Prestwick he holed a wood from about 180 yards for his third shot, the first at Prestwick..roughy from the car park to the current 16th green was a par 6, so if you talk about par it was actually an albatross. In the old days there were many par 6 holes, par 5s were often 360 yards plus and a par 4 might be 210 yards. 200 yards was a real big drive back then.

So he DID hole out from 180. Maybe he wasn't on the juice... maybe.

[Bill_McBride]

Ralph:

Young Tom the greatest golfer ever? Please you can't be serious.

If this were a historical golf "draft" I would take Babe Zaharias before Young Tom.

He was by far the most dominant player ever, four straight Opens and then died.  Read "Tommy's Honor," very good book.

Dominant over whom?

Oh I don't know, all of the other professional golfers of his era in the only major tournament they played!  He also had a record winning most of the singles and foursome money matches he played in.  You might not like it but he was in fact the dominant player - of his era.

[Eric Smith]

Not that anyone is going to change their mind, but the question was asked.

From Wiki

Young Tom broke the course record over the Old Course at St Andrews by two strokes with a score of 77, to win an extended playoff over Musselburgh's star Bob Ferguson for the 1869 St Andrews Professional Tournament; this score then stood as the course record for 20 years. The previous mark of 79 (first set in 1858) had been scored by Allan Robertson and Tom Morris, Sr.

Morris was ranked the 14th best golfer of all time in a survey published in Golf Magazine, September 2009. He was the top player whose career was entirely in the 19th century.

His Major Record:

Tournament                1865 1866 1867 1868 1869 1870 1871 1872 1873 1874
The Open Championship WD     9      4      1      1      1      NT     1     T3     2

Note: The Open Championship was the only major played during Young's lifetime.

Morris was a tremendous golf innovator who raised the playing standard significantly, and this, together with his aggressive promotion of his own skills, led to an enormous increase in the popularity of golf for spectators. Some of his challenge matches attracted thousands of spectators from all over Scotland. Such was the interest that major London newspapers and magazines sent correspondents to Scotland, a 400-mile trip by rail, to cover his challenge matches in the 1870s.

Although Morris won a very high percentage of his matches and tournaments, he managed to minimize animosity among rivals, who had to improve their own games to stay competitive. He had a friendly personality, and was well respected by everyone.

[PCCraig]

Ralph:

Young Tom the greatest golfer ever? Please you can't be serious.

If this were a historical golf "draft" I would take Babe Zaharias before Young Tom.

He was by far the most dominant player ever, four straight Opens and then died.  Read "Tommy's Honor," very good book.

Dominant over whom?

Oh I don't know, all of the other professional golfers of his era in the only major tournament they played!  He also had a record winning most of the singles and foursome money matches he played in.  You might not like it but he was in fact the dominant player - of his era.

Babe was far more dominant in Women's golf in the 1940's and early 1950's then Young Tom was over 4 Opens.

Obviously Young Tom was a dominant player during the early years of the Open...but people somehow forget that the Open, while 150 years old and golf's oldest major, has not always been an international event like it is today. So winning the Open agaisnt the best players of a particular region can't be compared directly to a player who wins an Open against the best players in the world (esp from the 40's on when it became far more of an international event). When you consider how much deeper the golfing world's talent pool is today the ability needed to win the Open increases exponentially.

So then what is more impressive? That Young Tom won what is the equivalent of a Regional Club Championship 4 years in a row, or Tiger Woods winning the Open 3 times, Watson 5 times, Jack, Palmer, Hogan, Seve, etc... against an international field?

Young Tom the greatest golfer of all time? Give me a break. 

[Bill_McBride]

There are obviously different definitions of "dominant," and many different opinions.

My current opinion is I am outta here to play golf this afternoon!

[John Moore II]

However, if you read the first post thoroughly, you will notice that it is plainly directed at me in an "up yours" tone.

Wow.  I'd get help for that paranoia, if I were you.  The reference to war in the first thread was stupid and doomed the thread from the word go.  But aimed at you?  Personally?  I don't think so.

Mark, I am not paranoid. Have you read the first post? It mentions me specifically, by name, twice. If it is not directed towards me, then why is my name in the post twice?

[Mark Pearce]

John,

I apologise.  You are quite right.

Mark

[Steve Lang]

  seem to have a bit of scatter over the years.. then improved much for 1868-70

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