[Ally Mcintosh]

To the original question... given a second round - if you want to see good modern architecture, go see The Castle course - It isn't everyone's cup of tea but it's brave and innovative and I like it.

However, given a second round and if you want the vibe of St. Andrews and proper links golf, I'd probably choose the New course...

Now given a 3rd, 4th and 5th round, I'd probably choose The Eden everytime going out about 5.30 P.M. (2 hours after last scheduled time) with a half bag and just have great quick evening rounds... Did that 3 times last August after busy days tending to other business...

[Brian Phillips]

To the original question... given a second round - if you want to see good modern architecture, go see The Castle course - It isn't everyone's cup of tea but it's brave and innovative and I like it.

However, given a second round and if you want the vibe of St. Andrews and proper links golf, I'd probably choose the New course...

Now given a 3rd, 4th and 5th round, I'd probably choose The Eden everytime going out about 5.30 P.M. (2 hours after last scheduled time) with a half bag and just have great quick evening rounds... Did that 3 times last August after busy days tending to other business...

Spot on...absolutely spot on.  Just avoid the Jubilee, it is long.....

[Sean_A]

I think there is a big difference between a guest and a visitor or an unaccompanied guest.  I will never understand members wanting to charge their mates $250 a game.  It seems much more sensible to charge visitors (or unaccompanied guests) that sort of fee and restrict guests to a reasonable number at a vastly cheaper price- even if a club can only take in ~20% of its income from outside sources.  

The issue here is that clubs need to collect a certain amount of revenue each year to run the club at the level that they see fit.  They could cut Guests fees down to very low levels but then the annual dues for members would have to go up and you would likely have more play on the course from non-members which could make it harder for the members to get tee times.  And the members that don't bring guest would be subsidizing those that do.So each club has to find a balance that they think makes sense.  

Here in Toronto most of the upper tier private clubs charge around $150 for a prime time guest which is a little bit less than the upper tier CCFADs (Glen Abbey, Eagle's Nest, Angus Glen) which tend to be about $170-235.  But add in a cart (if you want it) and the numbers become more comparable.

Wayne

I would think the idea of subbing one's dues off the backs of mates is a dubious buiness plan to say the least!

Your fears are easily remidied, especially when clubs only have 200-400 members.  However, I have never been one to believe that loads of money should be spent on maintenance or a big house and I like to see a course used enoug to create life in the house (I think a busy course is one sign of a healthy club), so perhaps I don't fit the "normal" cutout of a club member.  

 

Ciao

[Ken Moum]

Man, you lot just can't knock it off.  You are begging for me to go off on The Trust - yet again!  No one will get an argument from me that refutes a £130 green fee for a public course is outrageous and golfers should be boycotting TOC if they had any sense about them.  There is no reason why the Trust can't charge £65 for TOC and still present very fine courses for public consumption.  Mind you, I am not sure which is more stupid, theTrust charging £130 or a private club charging a guest of a member $250!  Both are signs that the golf business either has far too much money or is critically short of money - its likely both are true.

Ciao

I am a hell of lot less worked up about them charging 130 GBP than i am about the fact they are allowing The Old Course Experience to charge about $1500 for the tee time--only a small portion of which goes to the course.

http://www.oldcourse-experience.com/standrews.htm#1

I'm not hot to do the math, but in each of those packages, every component can be booked without difficulty--except a tee time at TOC.  So anything over the retail price is the premium for that one tee time.

THAT, I think, is a travesty.

K

[Chris Kane]

The biggest scandal in all this is that they're now charging £170 per annum for residents - it was £125 in 2006 and £130 in 2007!

[Wayne_Kozun]

The biggest scandal in all this is that they're now charging £170 per annum for residents - it was £125 in 2006 and £130 in 2007!

It depends on your perpective - in Canadian dollar terms the price was $268 on this day in 2007 vs. $273 today

[john_stiles]

Their web site has the annual reports, and list Trustees, and the appointing body for each Trustee, as :

P D Forster (Chairman), The Royal and Ancient Golf Club
Councillor A Arbuckle. Fife Council
Sir W M Campbell, MP for North East Fife
N J Crichton, The Royal and Ancient Golf Club
Mrs K Ferguson ,Fife Council (Appointed 1 January 2009)
Councillor Mrs F M Melville, Fife Council
Professor R Morrison, The Royal and Ancient Golf Club
K D Stewart, The Scottish Government (Appointed 1 January 2009)

3 of the 8 'appear' to be from R&A

The Management Team is

Dr J A Mills (Chairman), The Royal and Ancient Golf Club
M Cordner, Fife Council
Mrs D Kennedy, The Royal and Ancient Golf Club
Councillor D Morrison, Fife Council
K J Mullins, Fife Council
R A R Philip, The Royal and Ancient Golf Club (Appointed 1 January 2009)
Councillor W Sangster, Fife Council
Dr E Thain, The Royal and Ancient Golf Club

The various managers in key positions for day-to-day management are also listed.

As to play, it seems the  locals certainly hit the links and enjoy their golf.  What looks pretty good for them is that rounds played hasn't taken much of a dip, despite significant increases for locals.  Not sure what has been the increase for visitors.  You would have to consider the opening of the new Castle course with 2009 being its first year in operation.  So they maybe have about the same play,  over 1 more course.

LAST FIVE YEAR ROUNDS PLAYED ON THE TRUST'S 18-HOLE COURSES

Year
Rounds by locals
By visitors
Total rounds

2009
102,338
93,424
195,762

2008
103,258
93,389
196,647

2007
102,718
91,189
193,907

2006
105,801
94,789
200,590

2005
99,564
76,684
176,248


Presume  locals means 'locals' which may include R&A members as well ??

No breakdown of rounds/income by course was found.

Total visitors is holding steady which is a surprise given what I had heard about other courses on the Perry Golf Tour, et al, which depend on some 'visitors.'

[Wayne_Kozun]

The Castle Course opened July 2008 (according to the website) so 2009 numbers look pretty bad when you consider that there was one additional course open and the rounds per course would be down.  I wonder if the substantially lower numbers for 2005 are always the case for "Open Championship Years" since the three main courses would be closed for at least a week (probably two) during the peak of the season.

Although the increases for locals are significant on a percentage basis the annual cost is still extremely low on an absolute basis -  after all local dues are less than 150% of the cost of one round on the Old Course for visitors.  And from the perspective of a North American everything in the UK seems ridiculously expensive except for the golf fees for locals.

[john_stiles]

Well,  in consideration of everything,  I think the numbers look okay,  as opposed to pretty bad.

The tale of the register tape would be the key. You would also have to look at expenses versus income.  Considering increases in fees for locals, and I am guessing for visitors as well,  total income may have increased to match increases for one additional course.   The total rounds per course may have dropped.  If the part of the visitor play on the Old Course before and after Opens increased and at increased fees, it could be very good.

The older annual reports might be available for a peek at annual incomes/expenses versus 'golfers' above.

At least one notable course in the north swept in everyone on their 'waiting list' a year ago, maybe Jan 2009 or was it Jan 2008 ?  It was a large number and all were taken as the income was needed.  Those new members basically paid the initiation and then their annual dues (same as initiation). 

[Chris Kane]

It depends on your perpective - in Canadian dollar terms the price was $268 on this day in 2007 vs. $273 today

Considering that everyone eligible for the residents Yearly Ticket pays for it in pounds, your perspective doesn't help too much!

Its still the best deal in golf, and won't be bettered.

[David_Elvins]

I might have to re-think my trip to Scotland. 

The guide I have been using (publsihed in 1989) lists the green fees as 16.50. 

[Kyle Henderson]

How much is the Eden Course?  That's where I played most of my golf when I lived in St. Andrews.  They've destroyed a few of the original holes, but there are still some good ones in there, and I'm betting it's a bargain.

It now starts on what I believe was the 3rd hole. After about the 12th hole (current routing) the quality drops quite a bit. The course now features the only pond on the peninsula and is worse for it.

I dearly wish I had a chance to play Colt's original layout.

[David Lott]

Move to St Andrews and get a resident ticket for £170 for the year, allowing play on all the Links Trust courses.

And what is a "resident" for these purposes these days? Back in 1998, living there three months, I got a ticket for all Links Trust courses for a little under $400. That deal is gone. What would I have to do now to have "resident" status?

And back then Eden was cheapest by a mile and easy to access, and first 10 or so holes were great. Now? I don't know.

TOC was easy to get on as a single, esp. later in the day.

[Chris Kane]

And what is a "resident" for these purposes these days? Back in 1998, living there three months, I got a ticket for all Links Trust courses for a little under $400. That deal is gone. What would I have to do now to have "resident" status?

You have to be on the electoral roll, at an address within the town boundary. From memory, only citizens of the UK, Commonwealth nations and the EU are eligible to vote.

[Pete Lavallee]

Chris, 

Would a non Commonwealth husband of a British citizen be eligeble for that deal, if she lives in town and has regesitered to vote?

[Chris Kane]

Knowing how strictly they apply the rules, I would expect not.

[Ken Moum]

Move to St Andrews and get a resident ticket for £170 for the year, allowing play on all the Links Trust courses.

And what is a "resident" for these purposes these days? Back in 1998, living there three months, I got a ticket for all Links Trust courses for a little under $400. That deal is gone. What would I have to do now to have "resident" status?

And back then Eden was cheapest by a mile and easy to access, and first 10 or so holes were great. Now? I don't know.

TOC was easy to get on as a single, esp. later in the day.

I snapped a photo of the 2006/2007 rate sheet when I was there and it shows a £612 annual ticket for "any golfer." (Juniors were £306)

Members of approved local clubs living outside North East Fife were £348. (approved clubs are R&A, St. Andrews, New, St. Rule, St. Regulus and Leuchars RAF--but there's a warning of a waiting list for these tickets.)

Members of approved local clubs living inside NE Fife were £232.

Residents of St. Andrews and student at St. Andrews Univ. - £116.  (Their children under 16 - free, 16-18 - £30)

Almost all categories had a restricted ticket that excluded TOC and was about 25% less.

K

[Sean_A]

Yes, I did look into a pass some years ago when I thought of joining St Andrews GC - essentially a country membership.  The cost was too high though given teh club fees and the golf pass.  I think last year the pass was £785 for those without any special discount for where they lived/voted. I spsoe that isn't too bad if folks wanted to spend the summer in St Andrews...

Ciao

[Jamie Barber]

I spsoe that isn't too bad if folks wanted to spend the summer in St Andrews...

No good for this year, the summer has already ended in Scotland; it was last thursday  

[Ken Moum]

Yes, I did look into a pass some years ago when I thought of joining St Andrews GC - essentially a country membership.  The cost was too high though given teh club fees and the golf pass.  I think last year the pass was £785 for those without any special discount for where they lived/voted. I spsoe that isn't too bad if folks wanted to spend the summer in St Andrews...

Ciao

OTOH, if you could somehow get on TOC, that's only about 5 rounds at full price.

Ken

[Brian Freeman]

I thought Jubilee at £65 was a reasonable value and prepared to excellent standard in line with that price point.  Would not say the same about the New Course.  And we never even thought about the Castle based off all the feedback on this board - it is clearly not aligned with the other courses.

Here's how I look at it.  The courses belong to the Links Trust.  As for the other major venues in Scotland, they belong to their members.  My opinion is the owners can charge and limit access however they wish, it is up to them to decide and us to respond as appropriate based off their decisions as to how to run the courses to best meet their objectives.  If they want to completely restrict access except to locals or members, that is their right.  In the US, Augusta is completely private, as are most of the US Open and PGA venues.  I will likely never play Augusta National and have made my peace with it.  After spending most of my life in a part of the world (NC, TN) where the majority of the great courses are private and restricted, I consider it a privilege to be allowed to play any of these great courses and not an entitlement.  

So I prefer to recast the argument from that perspective.  There is a lot more right with the Scottish model than there is wrong with the Scottish model.

Brian

Of course you are correct.  However, my argument is there is no need for a public course which has no debt on the property to charge more than say $100 a game and still present a course in good nick with the owners making money if they are sensible with costs.  Course just don't need to be either that good or in that type of condition to charge more money.  IMO, places that charge $200 a game are VERY suseptible to economic conditions and thus often look for ways to impress golfers with things that have nothing to do with a quality course presented in good nick.  This sort of price rising just bounces back and forth until we get the situation we are in now where even in the UK the price of the great courses is essentially an excluisonary system and I would say the Trust is very much a driving force in creating this.  

Ciao    

Sean - sorry for the delayed response, been a busy week.

While I hold to my original statement, I think your perspective is right as well, that if they can effectively run the Old on $100/round, getting $200/round just because the market will pay it can lead to a lot of not so ideal things.  Three I can immediately think of are over-conditioning the courses (which definitely happened at the Old this year), building new, modern, lavish facilities that cause the experience to lose a bit of its simple, authentic nature, and a large bureaucracy of individuals (usually managers with pretty titles and not much responsibility) that springs up any time you have an agency with an excess of free cash flow available.  I do understand your point, I'm just a little more tolerant of those things simply because the alternative is the courses could be either: a) completely private, or b) $500 per round plus a hotel stay like Pebble and Pinehurst #2.

And on the other comment, I agree $1500 for the Old Course Experience is an absolute disgrace. It's mainly a laziness tax, and those are times that could be otherwise available for the rest of us.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()