Can you answer Pete Dye's Question?

[Richard Choi]

In the latest issue of Golf Digest, they have an article where the author is walking around Whistling Straits with Pete Dye where he is making some adjustments for the upcoming PGA Championship.

One of the interesting comments from Pete was that he has never been to Bandon Dunes (he actually called it "Brandon Dunes") and does not understand how courses there could be better than Whistling Straits (I believe he was referring to Pacific Dunes, but I would bet a lot of money Old Mac will surpass Whistling Straits in rankings). He thought may be it was due to views.

While I have played all of the courses at Bandon, I have not played Whistling Straits. Would anyone who has played both care to answer Pete's question?

[George Pazin]

Any chance he was kidding a bit, knowing Tom did Pac Dunes?

Really hard to imagine Pete gives a crap about rankings (or posters from the Burgh who don't get his courses, for that matter)...

[Michael Dugger]

That's simply an old dude talking who doesn't probably get out much anymore.

And of course he's going to say his course is the best, he designed it!!!

[Garland Bayley]

Perhaps because the courses in Bandon already have the modifications he is planning for Whistling Straits?

[Steve Strasheim]

Nothing but the utmost respect for Pete Dye.

He's accomplished enough in life to get a pass on just about anything he says.

[Tim Bert]

Well, I'd agree with Pete's speculation that the views may be superior but I like a few other things about Bandon better as well.

Did the interviewer bring up Bandon, or did Mr. Dye?  Doesn't seem like a topic he would bring up if he had never been there.  I'm guessing the interviewer took the conversation.

[JESII]

Well, I'd agree with Pete's speculation that the views may be superior but I like a few other things about Bandon better as well.

Those are what he wants to hear about Tim...he wants someone to articulate it.

[Anthony Gray]

  WS is more difficult because there are more places you don't want to miss and the angles off the tee and to the green are less direct.

   Anthony

[Michael Dugger]

  WS is more difficult because there are more places you don't want to miss and the angles off the tee and to the green are less direct.

   Anthony

Wasn't his quote about being "better" not "more difficult?"

[Jeff Tang]

I've played both and for me it's as simple as the conditions at Bandon make Pac Dunes better.  While both may have similarities in how they look Bandon plays firmer and this creates more opportunities for how to play the holes.  The Straits when I played it and from what I read of others who have played there doesn't have the same firm turf and this is a huge difference for me.

[Michael Dugger]

There have been a lot of things about WS pointed out over the years that do not protray the course in the same light as something like Pac Dunes.

Seems all the par 3's are quite similar.  #3 and #17 in particular.

A lot of the longer holes appear quite similar in look, basically I am saying the variety is somewhat lacking.

Doak pointed out once that he'd of built at least one par 3 with water as a back drop.  As it is each of the one shotters run along the water.

There is a pond on a hole?  A pond on a links course?  Don't see that too often, and it's quite difficult to pull off well.  One point deduction...

WS looks tremendous, but even from the armchair here I don't see the variety of holes and shots that a top tier course should possess.

[Anthony Gray]

  WS is more difficult because there are more places you don't want to miss and the angles off the tee and to the green are less direct.

   Anthony

Wasn't his quote about being "better" not "more difficult?"

  Richard ask to compare the two.

  Anthony

[Ted Cahill]

I actually think the views at WS are comparable with Pacific Dunes.  However, the firm conditions, genorous fairways, gorse and variety of holes at Pac Dunes make it the superior course.  Petes effort at WS is to be admired- lets remember that WS was the first resort to go to walking only and that was a big risk at the time.  Bandon simply took the idea to the next (and then some) levels. 

[Phil_the_Author]

There's a big difference between the big lake that Whistling Straits sits on and the one that the Bandon courses sit on...

[John Nixon]

There's a big difference between the big lake that Whistling Straits sits on and the one that the Bandon courses sit on...

Yes, Lake Michigan water is clearly not as picturesque as Pacific Ocean water.   

I've never been to either, but from photos I've seen to me the views of the land/courses themselves are better at Bandon, not the water adjacent.

[Shane Wright]

I've been to both.

Pacific Dunes is a better golf course than Whistling Straits.  I love all the Bandon Courses (haven't seen Old Mac yet) but I also loved Whistling Straits, probably for different reasons.  

I believe Whistling Straits requires just as many variety of shots as does Pacific Dunes (a different variety), but does not play links style like PDunes.  It is just a different feel to the shots.  PDunes sits on one of the greatest golf sites in the world.  Whistling Straits has a great location next to the water, but had to have a lot of "plastic surgery" done to get to the end result.  I don't personally knock this as a negative of the course, even though I prefer the more natural style of course.  The thought that went into building Whistling Straits should not be dimished.  However, there are a couple of holes that are a little weak whereas I didn't feel there are any weak holes at PDunes.

Is Whistling Straits better than Bandon Dunes or Bandon Trails - I don't know.  it is probably pretty close in my book.  

PDunes would take the cake though.  They are all a blast to play in my opinion, but paying rack rate at Whistling Straits is a little tough to justify.

[Richard Choi]

Here is a question.

Would WS' reputation improve it was cheaper to play than Bandon?

[Carl Rogers]

I do not see how anyone can compare golf courses that get a constant injection of lots of re-work money with courses that simply get built, used and maintained only.

How much more $$$$$ does it take, and how much all of the earlier money was a waste?

[Mike Wagner]

I love Dye courses, but WS is no Bandon...period.  BD (I like every course there better than WS) is much more playable, fun, and full of options.  I wouldn't call WS strategic or full of options, unless one of the options is to lose your ball.

Visually, well...WS is pretty cool, but there are hundreds of bunkers that just aren't relevant.  Bandon's looks waaaaaaay more natural.

[Greg Tallman]

There's a big difference between the big lake that Whistling Straits sits on and the one that the Bandon courses sit on...

Can you see the opposite shore of either body of water? What is the elevation of each along the shore?

[Tom_Doak]

Mr. Dye's perspective on golf courses is a bit different than mine ... he puts a lot more value on a course's ability to host a championship, which is only natural since that's what he's been thinking about for the last 30 years.  And I wouldn't argue that Whistling Straits is better equipped for that role than Pacific Dunes, or anything else I've built.

But, ocean beats lake, plain and simple.  And Mr. Dye ought to know that, considering that he always thought Teeth of the Dog was his best course.

P.S. to Greg ... Lake Michigan is 90 miles across from WS to Michigan, so no, you can't see the opposite shore.  But you don't often see 10-foot surf and driftwood on Lake Michigan, especially on the Wisconsin side.

[Greg Tallman]

Mr. Dye's perspective on golf courses is a bit different than mine ... he puts a lot more value on a course's ability to host a championship, which is only natural since that's what he's been thinking about for the last 30 years.  And I wouldn't argue that Whistling Straits is better equipped for that role than Pacific Dunes, or anything else I've built.

But, ocean beats lake, plain and simple.  And Mr. Dye ought to know that, considering that he always thought Teeth of the Dog was his best course.

P.S. to Greg ... Lake Michigan is 90 miles across from WS to Michigan, so no, you can't see the opposite shore.  But you don't often see 10-foot surf and driftwood on Lake Michigan, especially on the Wisconsin side.

So the huge pounding surf that will pounding at the very edges of the tees and greens at our new 6th and 7th holes will be considered a trump factor? Not to be confused with the Trump factor.


Speakking of Trump, does ocean beat bay? 

[Mac Plumart]

I think it is really neat to get insight into different architects thoughts and ideas relative to design.  Dye is focused on the PGA type player (or so it appears) and therefore his comment makes sense in that context. 

[Steve Kline]

I would play every course at Bandon 10-0 compared to WS. I didn't care for WS at all. We paid a lot of money and the fairways were all sand. There might have been two that you were allowed to play out of and the rest you had to move your ball into the rough. I don't remember a single hole at WS with any clarity as they all seemed the same. Obviously my opinion is jaded but I would never make another trip to Kohler when I could go to Bandon.

[Jim Hoak]

I agree with the conclusions of most here, and I agree that Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes are better than Whistling Straits for many reasons--most of which have already been stated.  But I do like Whistling Straits and I don't feel that being a bit less good than the Bandon courses is anything to be ashamed of.
But I do have a question--Whistling Straits was criticized for having a pond on a links course.  I know that there are many definitions of a links course, but I sure do not regard Whistling Straits as a links course.  It sits up from the lake, it was once productive farm land, the sand dunes were manufactured, etc.  Not being a links course takes nothing away from it in my mind.  It just never occurred to me to compare it to links courses, and I'm wondering if anyone else does?