Breaking news...Huntingdon Valley closes...test results "inconclusive"

[Steve_ Shaffer]

There is updated info in Joe Logan's article:

http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=5605

The forecast for Saturday here is 100'

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Guys:

nothing to do with the thread title or HV but FYI

The actual definition of wet wilt is when a plant wilts even though the soil is at field capacity or has excessive moisture. It actually occurs when the plant is not able to take up water quicker than it loses it through transpiration (ie the plants mechanism to cool itself - think of it as a human sweating) etc and usually occurs on hot, windy days when a plant is transpiring most. (Although I've seen it happen when it's just ridiculously hot out) The cure is to syringe the turf lightly enough not to add any more water but to cool the atmosphere above the surface so that the plant can catch up with it's water uptake. It's most prevalent on greens as they are under the most stress than say a fairway or rough area due to height of cut etc

A related symptom and one often called wet wilt is what I refer to as scalding. Basically this is the turf cooking itself to death. When the thatch/soil/etc is saturated it heats up more than normal due the water content and literally boils the turf. I've had areas over the past few weeks where it was uncomfortable to leave your hand in the wet turf for any period due to the heat. Also, remember when the soil is waterlogged there is no oxygen for the roots and that also adds to the problem as the roots start to die back and the plant is put under more stress. These problems are worst on shallow rooting push-up greens as the roots are right in the line of fire and obviously they are slow to drain.

[Powell Arms]

I love the term "defensive maintenance" in the updated Logan article.  We are practicing the same at Philly Cricket.  In communications from our super, the concern is that August weather arrived in July, and that all of the reserves stored by the grass to survive August are being depleted in July, making August a real touch and go proposition for all.  Add to this the perfect storm of heat and moisture over an extended period in July, and all manner of previously unseen disease has the potential to develop.

[TEPaul]

Deleted

[PThomas]

a question from a dummy in this area:

would it ever help to close a course BEFORE wet wilt or one of these other nasty things can happen...i.e., could stopping play for awhile and doing certain maintenance practices prevent wet wilt etc?

[Criss Titschinger]

At my club in Cinci we have been prepping the membership for several weeks about the potential for tough conditions. An agressive info campaign is a must. It won't stop all of the tongue wagging but it sure helps.

Unfortunately, things weather wise aren't going to get any better here for at least a week so we're holding on by our fingertips- or at least it feels that way.

I know a lot of the publics around Cincinnati are hurting right now, especially Deer Run. I hear Aston Oaks isn't in the best shape either.

TPC River's Bend looked okay last week for the Nationwide Tour, but I'm sure having a tournament and a much higher maintenance budget helps that a bit.

[Bill Brightly]

I wonder what this means for the "Let it go Brown" movement? I have been following Scott Anderson's approach at HV from afar and I thought one of the benefits of less chemicals was a plant that was better able to withstand the extremes of summer. So I am thinking that other supers in the northeast may be less inclined to "be out there" with maintenace techniques that are not standard after seeing what happened to HV.

[Dan Herrmann]

Bill,
I don't think it means anything negatively for the "let it go brown" movement.  The WX this year has been so unusual up here - we're getting Florida-style heat and humidity hitting MidAtlantic turfgrasses.  Keep in mind that this was right after 6 weeks of a "mini drought".

[BCrosby]

Bill -

As noted, the problems the NE is experiencing this summer parallel almost exactly the problems we have in the SE every summer.

The brown thing is coming. For reasons of heat/himidity. But also for reasons of new limits water usage.

Many people will hate it at first, but they'll not have much choice in the matter. I think it will be a win/win, but I am an outlier these days. As Mike Young will tell you, people avoid me at cocktail parties.

In defense of our Bermuda grass down here, it survives heat and low water wonderfully well. Bent, I'm not so sure.

Bob

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,
I don't think it means anything negatively for the "let it go brown" movement.  The WX this year has been so unusual up here - we're getting Florida-style heat and humidity hitting MidAtlantic turfgrasses.  Keep in mind that this was right after 6 weeks of a "mini drought".

Dan,

I am not trying to be critical, but to play devil's advocate: temps in the mid-90, hot nights and occaisional days of heavy rain are NOT all that unusual in the Northeast. Philly was really hard hit with this condition 5 (?) years ago. So it really does beg the question why HV had to close and its neighbors did not.  And if you think that every turf guy that has been closely following HV isn't taking notice of their current difficulties... you really don't know how supers think.

The scary part is that we still have August to get through...

[archie_struthers]

 


If there is one place in Philly that would not get sick...HVGC would have been on the top of my list ..the work b the super has long been respected and lauded in the area and we wish he and the members all the best in getting thru this ...

[JESII]

Bill Brightly asks the most important question on the thread, in my opinion, because of the overall percieved value in cost and playability of the program Scott has developed and promoted. If the grass still dies, why take the tough medicine?

The most important thing I can say about it is that these are the very first days in my memory that the course has closed due to agronomic health. In that sort of conversation, I am certain that no other course in this immediate region can say the same thing once regrassing is considered. Most have regrassed at least once in that time. On top of that, from June through August of just about every year, the best playability is at Huntingdon Valley very simply because of the program Scott runs.

So, Bill's question is important, but I hope those that need the answer look deeper than just the fact that some of the grass dies this summer. The benefits have been huge for years and years.

[JESII]

In addition, I think it's very speculative to name the problem when Scott hasn't done so directly or indirectly to any of us yet.

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, Whose named the problem?

[JESII]

Maybe nobody, I may have jumped the gun. I guess it's the nature of a discussion board to get hypotheses and solutions for unknown problems...like where to add bunkers at TOC...

[Rory Connaughton]

Bill,  I think everyone in the region recognizes the thoughtful processes employed at Huntingdon Valley over the years.  Based on conditions in this region, I think this could happen anywhere.  My recollection is that Aronimink was severely impacted in 2005 (though others chime in if I am incorrect) along with most other clubs.  Superintendents and memberships may be saying there but for the grace of God go I at the moment but as you pointed out, with August in front of us, without a change in weather, more clubs will experience something similar.  Perhaps an apt question in the case of H-Valley is whether this would have happened multiple times over the years had the practices employed there not been put into effect? (My guess is yes).

[PThomas]

a very cool golf course and pro...I wish them the best

[Ian Larson]

I keep hearing wet wilt. Has anyone thought of the possibility of pythium? The moisture and heat are also the perfect conditions for it as well. The only difference is that pythium can spread like wildfire while the environmental conditions persist. Going to the extreme of closing down 18 makes me think they had an "oh shit!" panic that pythium can easily cause,it's times like this in SE Pa where having pushups instead of sand can cause insomnia.

It's also times like these where having a sand green with subair capabilities is worth it's weight in gold.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The GCSAA has issued a warning:


http://www.myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=5635

[Anthony_Nysse]

The GCSAA has issued a warning:


http://www.myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=5635

Nice to see the GCSAA proactive

[Rory Connaughton]

Kelly I did not intend to imply that there was fault to be assigned at Aronimink. I offered it as an example of horrific conditions impacted clubs with great reputations for conditioning. Recall also that MGC shut the course down as a protective measure in 2005 in advance of the US Am.  I am sorry for any confusion that my post caused.

[John Moore II]

This is just tough weather for golf in general. Even here in Virginia, where we have only bent grass greens, our courses are suffering. I am seriously considering asking my course to let me go out there with a garden hose and spray some water on our greens, we have spots that are really, REALLY browning out.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

  We are all getting a bit beat up these days.  Seems like the weather has not been good in many regions of the country so I know that us in the Philly area are not alone.  I think it just time for common sense and hold on until shorter days and cooler nights arrive.  As far as HVCC goes specifically I don't know if speculation is going to get us anywhere but I understand it's normal to do.   As soom as Scott figures out what is going on I think the information will come out.  My guess is he will get the place back sooner and better than ever.  Hang in there everyone.

[Dan Herrmann]

Sean - thanks for what you and every super does.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Now with comments from HVCC Green Chairman:


http://www.myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=5636